LPX

[Master Mack]

Wauw,
Wel een mooie bak,
Ik denk nog steeds met velen van ons dat we voor 4x Crossover combatant moeten gaan en dan 2x MRSS en alles uitgerust met Dok.

Ik bedoelde het Damen MRSS 130mtr met dok 140mtr.

[Parera]

Ik weet dat dit voor de britten is, maar dit schip is per definitie niet geschikt om grotere amfib operaties te kunnen ondersteunen. En er even een droogdok inbouwen kan niet, dat heeft invloed op het gehele ontwerp.

Dat klopt, ik denk ook dat dit een heel mooi concept is voor het Britse Type32 fregat maar niet voor het MRSS. Dit ontwerp zou kunnen ondersteunen bij de operaties van het MRSS of zelfstandig kleine (SOF) eenheden aan land te zetten.

Het heeft dan wel ook 800 lanemeters (1600 m2)aan RoRo dek, maar het heeft geen LCU's aan boord. Dit zou dus betekenen dat er een extra schip met grotere landingsvaartuigen mee moeten varen. Dan zouden ze in een concept met seabasing (mexeflotes) de landingsvaartuigen moeten beladen. Het is een mogelijkheid, maar het is wel omslachtig.

Wij zouden zoiets dus wel kunnen doen bijvoorbeeld door het JSS mee te sturen met die mexeflotes of ander ponton systeem waaraan de zwaardere landingsvaartuigen aanleggen (LCVP's).

[Huzaar1]

Ik weet dat dit voor de britten is, maar dit schip is per definitie niet geschikt om grotere amfib operaties te kunnen ondersteunen. En er even een droogdok inbouwen kan niet, dat heeft invloed op het gehele ontwerp.

[Parera]

Waar zitten we dan in godsnaam naam te kijken?
Schip voldoet 0 procent

We zitten zeker niet te kijken voor NL, maar meer hier gepost van ''wat er ondertussen gebeurd bij de Britten''.
Het is eigenlijk een hele grote Crossover / Absalon ontwikkeld door een Brits bedrijf met flinke bewapening, maar die niet 100% voldoet aan de wensen (geen dok, 1 helispot)

Hier nog een duidelijkere impressie waar de ''stern ramp'' zoals ze het noemen duidelijk te zien is.

[Huzaar1]

Waar zitten we dan in godsnaam naam te kijken?
Schip voldoet 0 procent

[Parera]

Volgens mij is het dok van deze boot enorm klein. Ik wacht even met klappen, de britten weten nog veel meer te verneuken dan wij, met name in ontwerp en pre productie fase.

Het ontwerp heeft geen dok. Er zit een flexibel systeem in voor rhibs, landingsvaartuigen & USV's tot 20 m / 30  ton. Dit ontwerp voldoet ook niet aan de MRSS eisen van het VK. Het zou een mooie aanvulling zijn onder de naam Type 32 frigate, maar niet als het MRSS.



https://shdefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/SH-Defence_Stern-door-with-Boat-cradle.pdf

Bij een eerder ontwerp van BAE zie je het concept goed uitgewerkt.

[Huzaar1]

Volgens mij is het dok van deze boot enorm klein. Ik wacht even met klappen, de britten weten nog veel meer te verneuken dan wij, met name in ontwerp en pre productie fase.

[Master Mack]

nog wat extra info over het voorstel scheepsontwerp, Fearless MRSS van Steller Systems





Dit ontwerp is serieus bewapend !

Steller Systems unveil 'Fearless' Multi Role Support Ship concept

Following confirmation that the Royal Navy's MRSS programme will go ahead, Steller Systems has announced their Fearless concept as an alternative approach to the design and a starting point for discussion.

Fearless is designed not just to enable littoral strike operations but is relatively heavily armed and intended to survive in very contested A2AD environments. This is rather at odds with the RNs "non-complex warship" stated ambition for MRSS but is well worth considering.

Amphib
The 170m long vessel is approximately 15,500 tonnes at full load and has a capacity of around 800 lane-metres for vehicles, containers or off-board systems. (This compares with 1,200 LnM of the Bay class auxiliaries and 500 LnM for the Albion class LPDs). The vehicle deck is accessed by optional side-doors or the stern ramp but there is no well dock.

The stern ramp allows the launch and recovery of vessels up to 20m in length and 30 tonnes in weight. This could include Commando Insertion Craft, USVs, UUVs, XLUUVS or vehicles discharged onto mexeflotes or similar. While not as versatile as a well dock, this arrangement saves space and weight but can be safely utilised further offshore. Flooding down a vessel to use the dock is also only really viable in light sea states and low-risk environments.

Upper deck space is available for up to 5 TEU containers/PODS or additional weapon systems. The hangar can accommodate two Merlin-sized helicopters or a mix of helicopters and UAS. Fearless can comfortably handle the mothership role already performed by the Bay class and support missions as varied as mine warfare, seabed warfare, ASW and Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief.

Fast
The hull has been designed using Steller System's HullTune optimisation suite to ensure the best balance between hydrodynamic efficiency and stability. Combined with an advanced propulsion system, a mix of conventional shaft lines and azipods, the ship could achieve up to 30 knots – much faster than typical amphibious vessels. This turn of speed would enable the vessel to reposition rapidly to deliver raiding sorties across a broad theatre before then delivering effects to the beach. The vessel could then quickly leave the threat area to conduct other operations or reload with additional or alternative forces.

Armed
The heavy armament indicated in the concept comprises two medium-calibre guns. The 127mm Mk4 would enable Naval Gunfire Support while the 76mm Super Rapid is an all-rounder that can also offer air and missile defence with advanced ammunition. Additionally, there is a VLS silo indicated for various missile options. Close in defence is well covered with a mix of 30mm cannon, Phalanx CIWS and DragonFire LDEW mounts. This is complemented by a frigate-size primary radar and soft-kill defensive systems.

This is very much a concept only and if taken forward, would require much more detailed design work and nuanced equipment choices to be made by the customer. It might make more sense to align the equipment fit with Type 31 frigate and select the same weapons, sensors and CMS for commonality, reducing logistic support and training costs.

Positioning
Fearless is a hybrid design blending frigate armament with amphibious capabilities. Perhaps best summarised as a cross between an enlarged Danish Absalon-class logistics combatant and the BAE Systems' Adaptable Strike Frigate concept. While the RN budget for MRSS is unlikely to stretch to such a heavy armament there is an argument that this approach would give the fleet much-needed additional surface combatant mass. When employed in the littoral strike role it could operate in higher-risk areas, reducing the need for precious escorts for protection. Fearless has been designed to disaggregate to smaller more capable vessels rather than as direct replacements for the Albion and Bay classes. More platforms creates more uncertainty in a mind of the adversary about where they may strike. The concept has also been developed with export in mind and the level of armament is entirely up to the customer.

The multi-role vessel concept will always be controversial as many argue it is better to build specialist ships rather then 'jack of all trades' platforms that trade excellence in a particular capability for flexibility. A vessel with this level of complexity would also require the skills of industrial partners with high-end combat system integration experience whereas a more bare-bones MRSS could be built by a wider number of shipbuilders.

Like the BMT Ellida concept, Fearless provides another useful option for discussion around MRSS and it is likely other entities will make proposals soon. Whether the MRSS design will emphasise aviation, logistics, armament, overall flexibility or be dictated primarily by budget parsimony remains to be seen.

https://www.navylookout.com/steller-systems-unveil-fearless-multi-role-support-ship-concept/

Wauw,
Wel een mooie bak,
Ik denk nog steeds met velen van ons dat we voor 4x Crossover combatant moeten gaan en dan 2x MRSS en alles uitgerust met Dok.

[Harald]

Dit concept gaat uit van ondersteuning amfibische landingen, waar wij juist wat meer vanaf willen stappen.

Athans die conclusie trek ik.

Idd. Dat denk ik ook.
UK wil wel ondersteuning geven en zijn eigen broek op kunnen houden.
NL wil dat nu niet meer.

Maar in het eerste begin wel. Daarom zochten NL en UK ook de samenwerking op, maar visie van NL is gewijzigd.
Financieel is dit MRSS idee natuurlijk veel duurder dan ATS

Maar wat is operationeel duurder ;
- 1x ATS + 1x fregat, LCF
- 1x MRSS Fearless

[Huzaar1]

Dit concept gaat uit van ondersteuning amfibische landingen, waar wij juist wat meer vanaf willen stappen.

Athans die conclusie trek ik.

[Harald]

nog wat extra info over het voorstel scheepsontwerp, Fearless MRSS van Steller Systems





Dit ontwerp is serieus bewapend !

Steller Systems unveil 'Fearless' Multi Role Support Ship concept

Following confirmation that the Royal Navy's MRSS programme will go ahead, Steller Systems has announced their Fearless concept as an alternative approach to the design and a starting point for discussion.

Fearless is designed not just to enable littoral strike operations but is relatively heavily armed and intended to survive in very contested A2AD environments. This is rather at odds with the RNs "non-complex warship" stated ambition for MRSS but is well worth considering.

Amphib
The 170m long vessel is approximately 15,500 tonnes at full load and has a capacity of around 800 lane-metres for vehicles, containers or off-board systems. (This compares with 1,200 LnM of the Bay class auxiliaries and 500 LnM for the Albion class LPDs). The vehicle deck is accessed by optional side-doors or the stern ramp but there is no well dock.

The stern ramp allows the launch and recovery of vessels up to 20m in length and 30 tonnes in weight. This could include Commando Insertion Craft, USVs, UUVs, XLUUVS or vehicles discharged onto mexeflotes or similar. While not as versatile as a well dock, this arrangement saves space and weight but can be safely utilised further offshore. Flooding down a vessel to use the dock is also only really viable in light sea states and low-risk environments.

Upper deck space is available for up to 5 TEU containers/PODS or additional weapon systems. The hangar can accommodate two Merlin-sized helicopters or a mix of helicopters and UAS. Fearless can comfortably handle the mothership role already performed by the Bay class and support missions as varied as mine warfare, seabed warfare, ASW and Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief.

Fast
The hull has been designed using Steller System's HullTune optimisation suite to ensure the best balance between hydrodynamic efficiency and stability. Combined with an advanced propulsion system, a mix of conventional shaft lines and azipods, the ship could achieve up to 30 knots – much faster than typical amphibious vessels. This turn of speed would enable the vessel to reposition rapidly to deliver raiding sorties across a broad theatre before then delivering effects to the beach. The vessel could then quickly leave the threat area to conduct other operations or reload with additional or alternative forces.

Armed
The heavy armament indicated in the concept comprises two medium-calibre guns. The 127mm Mk4 would enable Naval Gunfire Support while the 76mm Super Rapid is an all-rounder that can also offer air and missile defence with advanced ammunition. Additionally, there is a VLS silo indicated for various missile options. Close in defence is well covered with a mix of 30mm cannon, Phalanx CIWS and DragonFire LDEW mounts. This is complemented by a frigate-size primary radar and soft-kill defensive systems.

This is very much a concept only and if taken forward, would require much more detailed design work and nuanced equipment choices to be made by the customer. It might make more sense to align the equipment fit with Type 31 frigate and select the same weapons, sensors and CMS for commonality, reducing logistic support and training costs.

Positioning
Fearless is a hybrid design blending frigate armament with amphibious capabilities. Perhaps best summarised as a cross between an enlarged Danish Absalon-class logistics combatant and the BAE Systems' Adaptable Strike Frigate concept. While the RN budget for MRSS is unlikely to stretch to such a heavy armament there is an argument that this approach would give the fleet much-needed additional surface combatant mass. When employed in the littoral strike role it could operate in higher-risk areas, reducing the need for precious escorts for protection. Fearless has been designed to disaggregate to smaller more capable vessels rather than as direct replacements for the Albion and Bay classes. More platforms creates more uncertainty in a mind of the adversary about where they may strike. The concept has also been developed with export in mind and the level of armament is entirely up to the customer.

The multi-role vessel concept will always be controversial as many argue it is better to build specialist ships rather then 'jack of all trades' platforms that trade excellence in a particular capability for flexibility. A vessel with this level of complexity would also require the skills of industrial partners with high-end combat system integration experience whereas a more bare-bones MRSS could be built by a wider number of shipbuilders.

Like the BMT Ellida concept, Fearless provides another useful option for discussion around MRSS and it is likely other entities will make proposals soon. Whether the MRSS design will emphasise aviation, logistics, armament, overall flexibility or be dictated primarily by budget parsimony remains to be seen.

https://www.navylookout.com/steller-systems-unveil-fearless-multi-role-support-ship-concept/

[Harald]

Nieuws van de buren aan de overkant van het kanaal.

Fearless MRSS: Enabling Littoral A2AD Pushback, Raiding And Landing Operations
Steller Systems unveiled today at Combined Naval Event (CNE) 2024 its Fearless-class, a hybrid UxV mothership / amphibious vessel, designed to answer the UK's Multi Role Support Ship (MRSS) requirement.

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/cne-2024/2024/05/fearless-mrss-enabling-littoral-a2ad-pushback-raiding-and-landing-operations/





Key Particulars:

LOA: 170m
LWL: 170m
Beam: 27m
Displacement: 15,500 Full
Range: 7000nm @ 18kts
Max Speed: 30+ knots
Benefits:

Highly efficient design
Cost-effective surface combatant
Mothership and landing ship
Designed to deliver full-spectrum capability

Zo zo topspeed 30+
Wel uitgevoerd met VLS (32?), 2x 76mm? en 2x CIWS

Doe me denken aan het Damen Crossover ontwerp, maar dit is wel groter.
Misschien toch zo gek nog niet 
   tja .. geen flattop

[Parera]

Nieuws van de buren aan de overkant van het kanaal.

Fearless MRSS: Enabling Littoral A2AD Pushback, Raiding And Landing Operations
Steller Systems unveiled today at Combined Naval Event (CNE) 2024 its Fearless-class, a hybrid UxV mothership / amphibious vessel, designed to answer the UK's Multi Role Support Ship (MRSS) requirement.

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/cne-2024/2024/05/fearless-mrss-enabling-littoral-a2ad-pushback-raiding-and-landing-operations/





Key Particulars:

LOA: 170m
LWL: 170m
Beam: 27m
Displacement: 15,500 Full
Range: 7000nm @ 18kts
Max Speed: 30+ knots
Benefits:

Highly efficient design
Cost-effective surface combatant
Mothership and landing ship
Designed to deliver full-spectrum capability

[Harald]

Jullie zijn kampioen vooroordeel.

Dit betekent niets. Maar ga je gang hoor, jaren voordat we ook nog maar bij een definitief ontwerp zijn de huil smily inzetten omdat je 90% van de informatie mist.

Klopt helemaal, idd heb geen inside info en we hebben nog geen definitief ontwerp.

Maar... wat ik schreef klopt ook. De ideeën, wensen welke eerst gezegd werden, bijvoorbeeld in het hoogste geweldsspectrum is compleet losgelaten.
Dus wat er eerst gesuggereerd werd komt er niet, compleet andere insteek.
Dat vind ik jammer.

[Huzaar1]

Wat me opvalt is dat men vanuit Defensie niet meer spreekt van LPX, vrij vertaald Landings Platform voor de toekomst, maar nu steeds ATS, Amfibische Transport Schepen.
Tekstueel een downgrading en dit zal in de praktijk straks ook zijn gezien dat de schepen straks niet meer hun eigen broek op kunnen houden kwa zelfbescherming en afhankelijk zullen zijn van andere fregatten.
Jammer...   

Jullie zijn kampioen vooroordeel.

Dit betekent niets. Maar ga je gang hoor, jaren voordat we ook nog maar bij een definitief ontwerp zijn de huil smily inzetten omdat je 90% van de informatie mist.