Australia leans toward buying Japan subs to upgrade fleet: sources

Gestart door Zeewier, 05/09/2014 | 13:45 uur

dudge

Citaat van: Oorlogsvis op 05/09/2014 | 15:17 uur
wat is dat duur...12 subs kosten toch nooit duurder dan pakweg tussen de 500mio en 700 mio per stuk ?

Het gaat niet om de subs, die zullen een miljard per stuk kosten, maar ontwerp en ontwerp vd bouw is ook prijzig.
Kijk eens wat de UK verwacht kwijt te zijn aan de trident replacement. Bouw vd subs zelf is vrij goedkoop, daarom zou 3 ipv 4 bouwen ook weinig besparen. Google er maar eens op, zijn leuke bedragen.

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: Mourning op 05/09/2014 | 15:10 uur
Volgens mij zit het eerlijk gezegd wel snor met de Japanse maritieme tech en know-how. En zeer waarschijnlijk wel beter dan dat.

$37-40 miljard Australische dollars als Australie zelf de boot zou hebben ontwikkeld en gebouwd, dat is 26,5-28,7 miljard Euro.... HOLY F***!  :omg: :dead:


;D het is maar papier.

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: tentara71 op 05/09/2014 | 15:05 uur
De Japanse OZD staat bekend als één van de betere. En subs bouwen doen ze al heel lang. Vertrouw er maar op dat die dingen het net zo goed doen als een Toyota. Of een Lexus. Behoren ook echt tot de stillere boten en qua technologie... het is Japans, he?

Ok.. dank voor de input.

Oorlogsvis

Citaat van: Mourning op 05/09/2014 | 15:10 uur
Volgens mij zit het eerlijk gezegd wel snor met de Japanse maritieme tech en know-how. En zeer waarschijnlijk wel beter dan dat.

$37-40 miljard Australische dollars als Australie zelf de boot zou hebben ontwikkeld en gebouwd, dat is 26,5-28,7 miljard Euro.... HOLY F***!  :omg: :dead:

wat is dat duur...12 subs kosten toch nooit duurder dan pakweg tussen de 500mio en 700 mio per stuk ?

Mourning

Volgens mij zit het eerlijk gezegd wel snor met de Japanse maritieme tech en know-how. En zeer waarschijnlijk wel beter dan dat.

$37-40 miljard Australische dollars als Australie zelf de boot zou hebben ontwikkeld en gebouwd, dat is 26,5-28,7 miljard Euro.... HOLY F***!  :omg: :dead:
"The only thing necessary for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"- Edmund Burke
"War is the continuation of politics by all other means", Carl von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege/On War (1830).

MasterChief1971

Citaat van: jurrien visser op 05/09/2014 | 14:56 uur
Vwb het van de plank kopen... daar heb je een punt, vwb de Japanse know how.... geen idee. ze hebben immers sinds de jaren veertig niets meer geëxporteerd.
De Japanse OZD staat bekend als één van de betere. En subs bouwen doen ze al heel lang. Vertrouw er maar op dat die dingen het net zo goed doen als een Toyota. Of een Lexus. Behoren ook echt tot de stillere boten en qua technologie... het is Japans, he?
"Whosoever commands the sea, commands the trade; whosoever commands the trade of the world commands the riches of the world, and consequently the world itself"- Sir Walter Raleigh

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: IPA NG op 05/09/2014 | 14:37 uur
Dit is de enige volwaardige vervanger die men van de plank kan kopen.

Verder heb ik groot vertrouwen in de de Japanse know-how.

Vwb het van de plank kopen... daar heb je een punt, vwb de Japanse know how.... geen idee. ze hebben immers sinds de jaren veertig niets meer geëxporteerd.

IPA NG

Citaat van: jurrien visser op 05/09/2014 | 14:19 uur
waarom dan?

Dit is de enige volwaardige vervanger die men van de plank kan kopen.

Verder heb ik groot vertrouwen in de de Japanse know-how.
Militaire strategie is van groot belang voor een land. Het is de oorzaak van leven of dood; het is de weg naar overleven of vernietiging en moet worden onderzocht. --Sun Tzu


IPA NG

Militaire strategie is van groot belang voor een land. Het is de oorzaak van leven of dood; het is de weg naar overleven of vernietiging en moet worden onderzocht. --Sun Tzu

Zeewier

Australia May Buy 'Off-The-Shelf' Japanese Subs
Although a risky sale in Australia, the benefits may be too great for either side to pass up.

By Clint Richards
September 03, 2014

After signing what in many respects was a landmark agreement for Japan with Australia to transfer (i.e. sell) defense technology and hardware in July, more news has emerged this week about the potential sale of Japanese Soryu-class diesel submarines. Japan passed legislation in April allowing for the export of defense-related items, previously prohibited. Since Japan failed to reach an agreement with India during a bilateral summit on Monday over the sale of Japanese US-2 amphibious rescue aircraft, a potential deal with Australia as early as next January would constitute Japan's first sale of any military hardware to an ally other than the U.S.

As my colleague Zach noted in July before the initial agreement was signed, any submarine deal between Japan and Australia would likely come in one of three forms: The use of Japan's existing Soryu design, a modified Soryu design, or an evolved Collins-class sub that incorporated some of Japan's superior technology. Sources who spoke with Reuters that are familiar with the ongoing negotiations have said that Canberra is now favoring the off-the-shelf version of Japan's submarine, albeit in a scaled-down format, despite the political backlash such a decision would likely create given that Australia has its own large naval defense industry employs 3,000 people.

The sources said buying the finished subs from Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. and Kawasaki Heavy Industries "is the best option out there." For Japan, it would reduce procurement costs for a military already making record budget requests, while for Australia the purchase price of $500 million each for twelve Soryu subs (plus maintenance fees likely to equal production costs for the life of the vessel) would still be significantly cheaper than the A$40 billion ($37 billion) estimate Defense Minister David Johnston balked at in June for a domestically produced sub.

Aside from the much larger production costs, a domestic version based on an upgraded Collins-class sub may not have been a viable option because of the Australian vessel's notoriously noisy design. In contrast, the Soryu is much quieter, and the Japanese ministry is already looking to purchase upgraded versions that could submerge for up to two weeks. The decision is far from settled, with potential domestic blow-back from Australia likely to be an issue. However, the savings may be too much to resist. While the economic benefits of such a deal to Japan's defense industry alone would be remarkable, the precedent it would set would be even more important, as it "would mark the first time since at least the end of World War Two that Japan had sold a complete weapons platform overseas," according to Reuters.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/09/australia-may-buy-off-the-shelf-japanese-subs/

Zeewier

Australia leans toward buying Japan subs to upgrade fleet: sources
BY TIM KELLY AND NOBUHIRO KUBO
TOKYO Mon Sep 1, 2014 5:33am EDT

(Reuters) - Japan and Australia are leaning towards a multibillion-dollar sale by Tokyo of a fleet of stealth submarines to Canberra's military in a move that could rile an increasingly assertive China, people familiar with the talks said.

An agreement is still some months away, three people said, but the unprecedented sale of off-the-shelf vessels based on the Japanese Maritime Self-Defence Force's Soryu class sub is emerging as the likeliest option.

Such a deal would signal a major expansion of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's controversial drive for a more active military after decades of pacifism. Rival China regularly accuses Abe of reviving Japan's wartime militarism.

Australia is eager to get the quiet-running diesel-engine subs from Japan, despite the political backlash that would follow from abandoning a government pledge to build the vessels at home, said a person with knowledge of Canberra's thinking.

"It is the best option out there," said the source.

Abe and his Australian counterpart Tony Abbott agreed in July to "enhance our security and defense cooperation", including the transfer of military equipment and technology.

Discussions have since moved rapidly from engine-technology transfer to a full build in Japan, with the goal of replacing by the 2030s Australia's six outdated Collins-class boats with 12 scaled-down versions of the 4,000-ton Soryu, the world's biggest non-nuclear subs.

"Discussions between Japan and Australia are gathering pace," one source said.

For Abe a deal, which could come as soon as January, would send a strong signal that Japan will be less constrained by its pacifist Constitution. He has already this year loosened curbs on arms exports, ended a ban on defending friendly nations and reversed a decade of military-spending cuts.

Selling a fleet of subs would mark the first time since at least the end of World War Two that Japan had sold a complete weapons platform overseas.

SHIFTING DEBATE

Bulk orders for Japanese arms makers would help bring down weapons-procurement costs for Tokyo, which has the biggest debt burden in the industrial world.

For Canberra, the sale would avoid the costs and risks of developing a homegrown champion from scratch, after the locally made Collins-class subs were panned for being noisy and easily detected.

A state-owned shipyard in the South Australian capital of Adelaide would handle maintenance and overhaul, which can cost as much as the purchase price over the life of the fleet.

Options under discussion run from working jointly to develop the technology, to Australia importing the engines and building the rest, to building the fleet in South Australia under license from Japan, to - most controversially - Canberra buying finished subs designed and built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd (7011.T) and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd (7012.T), the sources said.

A visit last week by representatives of the two Japanese companies to the Adelaide shipyards of government-owned ASC Pty Ltd - formerly Australian Submarine Corp - sparked fierce media speculation in Australia.

A spokeswoman for ASC referred all questions to Australia's defense ministry.

"No decisions have yet made on the design and build of the next generation of Australian submarines," a spokeswoman for Defence Minister David Johnston said. "It is entirely proper and prudent for the government to consider these strategic decisions through the Defence White Paper process."

Spokesmen for Mitsubishi Heavy and Kawasaki Heavy said they were not in a position to comment on the government-led talks.

Japanese Defence Ministry spokesman Hirofumi Takeda declined comment, saying only that "Japan and Australia are conducting various exchanges of opinion, including on equipment and technology transfer, as we move toward strengthening bilateral defense cooperation".

Australia acknowledged in July for the first time it might allow the subs to be built overseas.

DOMESTIC BLOWBACK

Cost is an issue for Canberra. Defence Minister Johnston told Reuters in June that he was "very disturbed" by the A$40 billion estimate for the homegrown option.

Twelve top-of-the-line Soryu subs at $500 million each, plus maintenance and overhaul, would work out cheaper for Australia as it grapples with austerity.

Abbott's government is to make a final decision on the type and number of submarines it wants in a broad defense review expected early next year. But already there is strong opposition in Australia to building the subs overseas.

South Australia's defense and trade minister, Martin Hamilton-Smith, said there was alarm within the state administration that the federal government was about to do a "backflip" and reverse its policy.

He warned that any decision to build the submarine overseas would have a broader impact on the economy than the recent decisions by Ford Motor Co (F.N), Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) and General Motors Co (GM.N) to cease manufacturing in Australia.

South Australia is home to 27,000 defense jobs, 3,000 of them in shipbuilding, and Hamilton-Smith said the submarine project would generate industry activity worth A$250 billion over 30 years.

"I think a number of state governments, a large segment of the defense industry and the shipbuilding and defense workforce would be shattered, absolutely shattered and devastated by such an announcement," he told Reuters.

The United States, which has strong military ties with both Japan and Australia, would welcome the improvement to Canberra's naval capabilities, which could help Washington monitor China's underwater activity as its own fleet shrinks.

"The Japanese have got the (technological) lead right now," said Admiral Stuart Munsch, the chief U.S. undersea naval officer in Asia.

Cooperation on subs "is a national decision for them to make with each other, but we would certainly be welcoming of that partnership," Munsch told reporters aboard a U.S. submarine during a visit to the Yokosuka naval base near Tokyo last month.

(1 US dollar = 104.0500 Japanese yen) (1 Australian dollar = 97.1411 Japanese yen)

(Additional reporting by Matt Siegel in Sydney; Editing by William Mallard And Alex Richardson)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/01/us-japan-australia-submarine-idUSKBN0GW1RQ20140901