Duitsland zoekt CH-53 Stallion vervanging

[dudge]

Zitten er uberhaupt voordelen aan die Sikorsky?

Hij doet het goed boven water, en eet Chinooks als ontbijt, dwz, neemt iets van 2x zoveel mee.

[Huzaar1]

Zitten er uberhaupt voordelen aan die Sikorsky?

[JdL]

Niet te hard roepen; ze zij juist om die reden begonnen aan de samenwerking met NL.

Ja maar dat seebatalion stelt nog niet zo heel veel voor, ik zie het een beetje net zoals wij in het begin met 11AMB.
Het mag nu niet teveel kosten, als het een succes wordt kunnen we altijd nog investeren.

Dus voor dat proefballonetje zullen ze niet voor een peperdure heli kiezen, de Duitsers zitten immers ook krap in de muntjes.

Ik voorzie keuze voor chinook met op lange termijn, als het seebatalion een succes mocht blijken en men wat extra power wil misschien een klein aantal CH-53K's erbij.

[Lex]

Als je voor een 2 x zo duur toestel gaat moet je wel hele sterke maritieme ambities hebben.
Dat hebben de Duitsers niet en zie ik ze niet krijgen ook.

Niet te hard roepen; ze zij juist om die reden begonnen aan de samenwerking met NL.

Hebben de Duitse CH-53G's überhaupt wel eens vanaf schepen geopereerd?

Volgens mij niet.

[JdL]

Als je voor een 2 x zo duur toestel gaat moet je wel hele sterke maritieme ambities hebben.
Dat hebben de Duitsers niet en zie ik ze niet krijgen ook.
Hebben de Duitse CH-53G's überhaupt wel eens vanaf schepen geopereerd?

[dudge]

Met groeiende amfibische ambities is een split-buy misschien zo'n gek idee nog niet.

Zie ik niet gebeuren.
Om iets dergelijks mogelijk te maken moet er een sterke maritieme ambitie en organisatie staan. En die mist op dit moment nog. De Duitsers hebben niet eens eigen vliegdekschepen/LHD's. Een keuze voor de CH47 zou misschien over 10 jaar gevolgd kunnen worden door een kleine CH53 order, maar ook dat lijkt mij onwaarschijnlijk. De keuze wordt nu gemaakt en daarmee wordt de gehele behoefte voorlopig ingevuld. 

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

idd, vanuit het oogpunt financieel en samenwerking zou dit een goede keus zijn. Ook voor Nederland, misschien met de aankomende nieuwe F's , zou het misschien goed zijn om hier als NL in te springen samen met de Oosterburen om tot een standaard te komen. Dus de nieuw NL Chinooks ook aan te schaffen in de ER uitvoering met SF toevoegingen.

Alleen met de 53 kun je ook maritieme operaties uitvoeren, waarbij de 47 beperkt is. Tja ... alleen kun je zowat 2 stuks 47 kopen voor 1 stuk 53     

Met groeiende amfibische ambities is een split-buy misschien zo'n gek idee nog niet.

[Harald]

CH47 lijkt me ook wel de beste papieren te hebben. Maarja, de 53 is gewoon een mooi beest.

idd, vanuit het oogpunt financieel en samenwerking zou dit een goede keus zijn. Ook voor Nederland, misschien met de aankomende nieuwe F's , zou het misschien goed zijn om hier als NL in te springen samen met de Oosterburen om tot een standaard te komen. Dus de nieuw NL Chinooks ook aan te schaffen in de ER uitvoering met SF toevoegingen.

Alleen met de 53 kun je ook maritieme operaties uitvoeren, waarbij de 47 beperkt is. Tja ... alleen kun je zowat 2 stuks 47 kopen voor 1 stuk 53     

[dudge]

CH47 lijkt me ook wel de beste papieren te hebben. Maarja, de 53 is gewoon een mooi beest.

[Harald]

"German Air Force likely flies Chinooks in 2020"

The German Air Force will be operating the Boeing "CH-47GE" Chinook from 2020 and onward, as a replacement of its current Sikorsky CH-53G heavy-lift helicopter. Although no official plans have been announced yet, it is a likely scenario looking at the options the military decision makers in Berlin will have to weigh.

While Sikorsky/Lockheed Martin are currently putting the new CH-53K King Stallion through its testing face, the chances of this newer 33 ton rotary wing winning the replacement order for Germany's current G-versions are getting slimmer. Berlin might very well go for the "CH-47GE" (German Edition) of the Boeing Chinook for three very good reasons.

With NATO allies
First, with 40 to 50 million a piece, the most modern Chinook will costs about half of the CH-53K, which has a base price tag of 93 million. Second Boeing is working hard to increase both lift and range of its CH-47 model. Third the interoperability with important NATO allies will improve big time, making even joint maintenance and further cost reduction possible. For example, the US Army's 12th Combat Aviation Brigade in Germany flies the Chinook, as well as the Royal Netherlands Air Force's support to 1 German Dutch Army Corps of 30,000 troops.

The new Chinook
Boeing plans to start testing its newest rotor blade later this year in Mesa, Arizona. Equipped with new honeycomb rotor blades, more powerful engines and other smart solutions like a new digital advanced flight-control system Boeing hopes to increase the maximum take-off weight of its most current CH-47F so the useful load will be almost 30,000 lb (13,600 kilograms). That's 8,000 lb (3,600 kg) more than the projected Block 2 upgrade for the US Army. It puts the new Chinook on the map as air lifter for almost all smaller German Army equipment, all the way up to the Mowag Eagle IV and V wheeled vehicles of which the Bundeswehr has orderd 670.

Royal Canadian Air Force Extended Range
As for distance, the Royal Canadian Air Force already has good experiences with Extend Range fuel tanks on its 15 CH-147F Chinooks flying with 450 Tactical Helicopter Squadron out of Petawawa, Ontario. The choppers are able to operate on distances up to 595 nautical miles (1,100 km) from home before refueling is needed. The CH-53K can fly up to 460 nautical miles (852 km) without reserves, but the Sikorsky's combat range is 90 nautical miles (almost 170 km) less than that of the base-model CH-47F.

Current CH-53GA
Whatever the outcome of the debate to replace the current heavy-lift chopper of the German Armed Forces, the Boeing "CH-47GE" currently has the best cards on the table. Until the new rotary wing will arrive, the Luftwaffe will soldier on with its 40 recently modernized CH-53GA and its remaining 26 CH-53s of the older G/GS standard making up a fleet of 66 impressive machines.

http://airheadsfly.com/2016/06/13/german-air-force-likely-flies-chinooks-in-2020/


Chinook in Extended Range uitvoering, goed te zien aan de "bolle wangen"

[Harald]

Boeing targets October test for improved Chinook rotorblades

Boeing is targeting an October test of new CH-47F Chinook rotorblades to increase its maximum take-off weight by 907kg (2,000lb), despite the upgrade not yet being fully funded by the US Department of Defense.

A US Army-owned Chinook is at the manufacturer's Mesa, Arizona facility where it is undergoing modifications ahead of tests of the honeycomb composite rotorblades, which form part of the service's Block II upgrade plan.

Full evaluations will begin in October, following preliminary trials the previous month. Once fielded, the upgrade will increase the heavy-lift helicopter's useful load to 13,600kg, up from 12,700kg at present.

Although the enhancements are yet to be approved by the US Department of Defense, there is an acknowledgment that "we need to work through Block II to keep the aircraft viable", says Mark Ballew, director of attack helicopter sales at Boeing. A milestone B decision on the upgrade package is expected in the first half of fiscal year 2017.

Boeing is pursuing a Chinook sale to Germany as a replacement for the Luftwaffe's fleet of Sikorsky CH-53Gs. It may offer Berlin the extended-range model – currently performing "remarkably well" with the Royal Canadian Air Force – which has twice the fuel capacity of baseline F-model.

The airframer considers the Chinook to be the "sweet spot" for Germany in terms of lift capabilities, says Ballew.

Modifications, such as those to the rotorblades, along with performance increases, are part of Boeing's plans to provide "more value for less" to customers, by offering clear upgrade paths for its helicopter programmes.

Although declining global defence budgets are putting pressure on sales, Boeing is confident it can increase its market share. And while some orders have been slowed, it has yet to see any cancellations.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-targets-october-test-for-improved-chinook-rot-426193/

[Harald]

ILA 2016: Sikorsky builds up heavy lift offering

With a request for proposal (RFP) for Germany's Heavy Transport (STH) helicopter programme expected in 2017, Sikorsky is ramping up its efforts to win the programme with its offer of the CH-53K.



https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/ila-2016-sikorsky-builds-heavy-lift/

[Sparkplug]

ILA 2016: Airbus Helicopters discussing CH-53-replacement role for Germany

Gareth Jennings, Berlin - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly | 03 June 2016


As this ILA model shows, Boeing is likely to offer Germany the 'fat tank' CH-47F ER variant of its Chinook heavy-life helicopter once the requirements are released. Source: IHS/Gareth Jennings

Airbus Helicopters is talking to both Boeing and Sikorsky about possible future workshare in the Schweren Transporthubschrauber (STH) replacement programme for the German Air Force's ageing CH-53G heavy-lift platforms, the company's CEO said at the ILA Airshow in Berlin.

Guillaume Faury told reporters on 1 June that representatives from Airbus Helicopters have been in discussions with both US companies with a view to future involvement in either a Boeing CH-47F Chinook or Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion buy by the Bundeswehr.

"We are still waiting on the specifications from the German government, and then we will see [what workshare options might be available to us]. We will have [further] deep discussions with both companies, and then we will partner with one," he said.

Airbus Helicopters is currently responsible for supporting the air force's fleet of 66 VFW-Sikorsky CH-53G/GS/GA Stallions at its site in Donauworth, southern Germany, and is contracted to continue doing so through to 2020.

Faury was keen to state that he has no view on whether the Bundeswehr should opt for either the Chinook or the King Stallion. Wolfgang Schoder, CEO of Airbus Helicopters Germany added to Faury's comments, noting that whatever new platform the Bundeswehr opted to go with, a smooth transition would be especially important.

A formal request for proposals (RfP) for an expected 40 to 60 helicopters is expected to be issued in 2017. The selected platform should then enter Bundeswehr service in about 2022.

Both Boeing and Sikorsky used the occasion of ILA to promote their respective platforms, and to provide some more detail on their likely offerings to the German government once the requirements are known.

Boeing's director of vertical-lift programmes in Germany, Michael Hostetter, said that his company would likely be pitching the CH-47F Extended Range (ER) helicopter. This 'fat tank' version of the Chinook is already in service with Canada (CH-147F), the United Kingdom (HC6), and the United States Special Operations Command (MH-60G), with 80 having been delivered from the Philadelphia production plant to date.

Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options ihs.com/contact

To read the full article, Client Login

(356 of 778 words)

http://www.janes.com/article/60932/ila-2016-airbus-helicopters-discussing-ch-53-replacement-role-for-germany

[Harald]

ILA 2016: Boeing and Sikorsky in Berlin showdown for German CH-53 replacement

Boeing and Sikorsky are going head-to-head at 2016's ILA Airshow in Berlin in a bid to secure a German armed forces (Bundeswehr) requirement to replace its ageing VFW-Sikorsky CH-53G/GS/GA Stallion heavy-lift helicopters.

Both companies are promoting their respective platforms at the event taking place at the Berlin ExpoCenter Airport from 1 to 4 June, following the news first reported by IHS Jane's in December 2015 that the Bundeswehr is to select either the CH-47F Chinook or CH-53K King Stallion as its future replacement.

The German Air Force currently fields 66 CH-53G/GS/GS platforms, the first of which entered service during the 1970s. With Airbus Helicopters tasked with maintaining these aircraft through to 2020, the Bundeswehr is looking for a modern replacement to begin entering service in about the same time frame.

Speaking at the site of Airbus Helicopters' Donauworth facility in late November 2015, the CEO of Airbus Helicopters Germany and Head of Light and Governmental Programs, Wolfgang Schoder, said that the German Ministry of Defence is looking at only the Chinook or King Stallion as these were the only viable 'off-the-shelf' solutions available to fulfil the requirement. This statement was confirmed in January 2016 by a senior Bundeswehr at the IQPC International Military Helicopter conference in London.

A replacement decision is due later in 2016, with a contract to be signed in 2018 and deliveries from 2022.

http://www.janes.com/article/60820/ila-2016-boeing-and-sikorsky-in-berlin-showdown-for-german-ch-53-replacement

[Sparkplug]

Germany seeks pricing for 41 CH-53K King Stallions

By James Drew, Washington DC | 17 May 2016

The US government is preparing a response to Germany's letter of request for pricing and availability of 41 heavy-lift Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion helicopters to begin replacing the 80 G-models the country currently operates.

Berlin is considering both the CH-53K and the Boeing CH-47 Chinook to meet its heavy vertical lift requirement, and the US Marine Corps is keen to take advantage of the better pricing that could be achieved by adding a sizable King Stallion order at the front-end of the production ramp.

The new model, which first flew in October, has twice the max gross take-off weight of the legacy CH-53G operated by the Luftwaffe at 40t (88,000lb) with external loads compared to 19t (42,000lb).

US Naval Air Systems Command's H-53 programme manager (PMA-261) Col Henry Vanderborght said at the Navy League Sea-Air-Space conference in Washington DC that adding foreign military customers achieves better production pricing, improve interoperability between allies and lower shared upgrade and sustainment costs.

"The Marines are buying 200 aircraft. Add another roughly 50 aircraft; that's 25% more and tremendous savings for the US government in terms of production costs," says Vanderborght on 16 May. "Beyond production, think about sustainment. Any new software upgrade, any new capability we need: if a foreign partner wants that too, we could share the development costs."

Vanderborght and Sikorsky CH-53K chief Mike Torok believe that Germany is the nearest term opportunity to add an international customer, and the next would be Israel, which operates 23 CH-53s.

The CH-53 users group includes the US Marine Corps, Germany, Israel and Japan, and those operators meet twice yearly to discuss sustainment, support and upgrades. Those nations are kept well informed about the CH-53K's progress.

Torok says Germany has not settled on an official programme timeline yet. In January, Flightglobal reported that Germany ideally wants to sign a deal in 2018 for initial deliveries beginning in 2022. Sikorsky says discussions have ranged from "40 to 60 or so" aircraft and a request for proposals is expected next year.

"We knew all along once we started flying and making this pivot to production that the interest would start peaking and we've gotten some requests from some other countries who are not traditionally CH-53 drives," he says. "The stuff everyone wants to carry is getting heavier, so the basic aircraft have just run out of capability, especially in very hot conditions where you have limitations."


Sikorsky CH-53K conducts first external load test
Lockheed Martin/Sikorsky

Boeing is upbeat about the Chinook's prospects in Germany, but as the CH-53K programme gathers momentum in anticipation of initial operational capability with four combat-ready aircraft in 2019, the competition is expected to be heated.

Vanderborght says the CH-53K is not a one-for-one replacement because of its outsized lifting capacity, and fewer aircraft means less overall force structure and personnel. Torok says Lockheed Martin-owned Sikorsky expects to build anywhere up to 300 aircraft and is preparing to add Germany at the front end, if needed.

NAVAIR recently put Sikorsky on contract for long-lead parts for the first two aircraft of Lot 1, and is working toward a Milestone C decision that will enable low-rate production to start in 2017.

Two aircraft are already flying, five are in testing, and another eight are at various stages of assembly. Sikorsky completed an internal production readiness review in March, ahead of a formal government review planned for later this year.

All 200 USMC aircraft are expected to be in place by 2029 to achieve full operational capability, with production ramping up to 24 CH-53Ks per year in beginning in 2025.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/germany-seeks-pricing-for-41-ch-53k-king-stallions-425387/