SEA 1000: French bid to make Australia submarines fades on US security fears

Gestart door Zeewier, 09/02/2016 | 22:04 uur

Zeewier

Questions surround Australia's new submarine fleet's ultra-stealth propulsion technology
The Navy's new stealth submarines might not be so stealthy after all.

Ultra-quiet pump-jet propulsion technology was a key selling point in the subs' design.
It was supposed to help make the subs "the world's most advanced conventionally powered submarine"
Executive director of Naval Group now says propeller technology might be used on the submarines
A top executive at the company building the subs has thrown doubt on whether cutting-edge pump-jet propulsion technology will be used as planned.

The ultra-quiet technology was a key selling point for the French design that won the Government's competitive evaluation process to build the new submarines at a cost of $50 billion.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-19/new-subs-fleets-promised-stealth-technology-questioned/9058858[

Zeewier

Niet verrast.  ;D

Australia's Government Under Attack Over Submarine Deal
In a new report, experts urge Australian government to drop plans to procure French-made nuclear attack submarines.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
October 04, 2017

The debate over the Royal Australian Navy's (RAN) future submarine fleet is raging on with a new report urging the Australian government to reconsider its decision to procure redesigned diesel-electrics submarines and opt for modified off-the shelf boats instead, or risk a major capability gap in the near future.
Australia's submarine project, which aims to replace the RANs fleet of six aging Collins-class submarines designed by Swedish manufacturer Kockums in the 1990s, is "extravagantly expensive, highly risky and in an era of heightened tensions in the Asia Pacific compromises the future defense of Australia," a recently released Insight Economics report, commissioned by Gary Johnston, a Sydney businessman, states.
Australia and France concluded an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) for the construction of 12 Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A  submarines, a diesel-electric derivative of French shipbuilder Direction des Constructions Navales Services' (DCNS) Barracuda-class nuclear attack submarine under the Royal Australian Navy's SEA 1000 Future Submarine Program (FSM) in December 2016. The 12 submarines — except for some specialized parts — are slated to be built in Adelaide, home to the Australian Submarine Corporation (ASC).Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.The report claims that Australia's new submarine fleet will cost far more than necessary. "We will pay far too much for a boat that will do far too little," Hugh White, author of the study, said on September 27, during a presentation of the report in Canberra. "Our calculation in the report is that, in 2016 dollars, these 12 boats will cost us $40bn, plus $6bn for the combat system – well over $3bn a boat. In every major project like this, the costs escalate."
However, according to the report, the bigger risk with sticking to the modified Barracuda-class is that "Australia will be left with a submarine capability that is either seriously inadequate or, in the worst case, non-existent for several years." The report states:<blockquote>Engineering experts consider the technical risks around the Shortfin Barracuda to be high. It will be a very large conventional submarine and the engineering challenges are formidable. Most surprisingly, the present concept design does not incorporate modern batteries or AIP, considered by most experts as essential in a future operational environment where submarine detection technologies will have improved significantly.</blockquote>According to Australia's 2016 Defense White Paper, the first Shortfin Barracuda will enter enter service in the 2030s, with construction of the sub fleet extending way into the 2030s and 2040s. "A rolling acquisition program will ensure that Australia is able to maintain a fleet of 12 regionally superior submarines as submarine and anti-submarine technologies develop over the coming decades," the white paper notes.
Johnson, who also runs the website Submarines for Australia, instead argues that the government should move quickly to procure to six off-the-shelf submarines, either German Type 212 or French Scorpene-class boats. "[R]ather than extend Collins, take urgent steps to acquire six off-the-shelf submarines, modified to extend their range and built in Adelaide if cost-effective," he argues.
"And also, because of the long transits to the Navy's areas of operations, acquire a submarine tender – a mother ship – that could be forward based on Australian territory and provide a better amenity for the crews. Together this should cost under $10 billion," he adds in line with the report's findings.
"Second, bring forward the review of future submarine technologies flagged in the 2016 Defense White Paper. The review would consider whether we should either acquire more, much cheaper, modified off the shelf submarines; or build the Shortfin Barracuda; or set in motion the lengthy and costly process to acquire nuclear submarines. The criteria would be capability requirements and value for money."
Australia's Defense Minister, Marise Payne, has dismissed the report's recommendations. "The consistent advice from Defence and actual experts in the field is that there are no military-off-the-shelf submarine options that meet Australia's unique capability requirements," she said. "A 'modified off-the-shelf' submarine is an oxymoron."
The Insight Economics study is not the first report to criticize the Australian government's submarine acquisition strategy. In June 2016, former Defense Minister, Kim Beazley, said in a report prepared by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) that rapid advancements in underwater military technology could make the RANs future submarine fleet obsolete much sooner than Australia's defense ministry is anticipating.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/australias-government-under-attack-over-submarine-deal/


Zeewier

Citaat van: Ace1 op 03/07/2017 | 17:30 uur
Wat is er mis met Zweeds staal?
Japan blijkt kennelijk niet meer dan bereid dan suboptimaal staal te leveren om een 'dadjoke' te maken. En inderdaad; met het staal van SSAB is weinig mis.

Ace1

Citaat van: Zeewier op 02/07/2017 | 23:35 uur
Weten we dat ook weer: Zweeds staal dus!

"In government, Abbott favoured partnering with the Japanese to adapt their Soryu sub for our purposes. For strategic reasons, this was the option the Pentagon and Washington generally favoured. It involved nearly as big an adjustment by Tokyo as by Canberra. Unfortunately, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was unable to motivate Mitsubishi to embrace the project in the way he wanted. The Japanese never offered us the full Soryu and their first offering actually ­involved metal that was inferior to the metal in the Collins-class subs."

Het gehele artikel is het lezen waard!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/idea-of-an-australian-nuclear-submarine-fleet-just-wont-float/news-story/dd5123c0be52dffb4ec161dd2789be3c


Wat is er mis met Zweeds staal?

Citaat van: Harald op 02/05/2016 | 13:51 uur


http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2015/05/15/1227356/703500-345b9970-fad0-11e4-8bbc-a4e8f2601378.jpg

walter leever

Citaat van: Zeewier op 02/07/2017 | 23:35 uur
Weten we dat ook weer: Zweeds staal dus!

"In government, Abbott favoured partnering with the Japanese to adapt their Soryu sub for our purposes. For strategic reasons, this was the option the Pentagon and Washington generally favoured. It involved nearly as big an adjustment by Tokyo as by Canberra. Unfortunately, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was unable to motivate Mitsubishi to embrace the project in the way he wanted. The Japanese never offered us the full Soryu and their first offering actually ­involved metal that was inferior to the metal in the Collins-class subs."

Het gehele artikel is het lezen waard!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/idea-of-an-australian-nuclear-submarine-fleet-just-wont-float/news-story/dd5123c0be52dffb4ec161dd2789be3c

Gaat niet,geen abonnement. :silent:

Zeewier

Weten we dat ook weer: Zweeds staal dus!

"In government, Abbott favoured partnering with the Japanese to adapt their Soryu sub for our purposes. For strategic reasons, this was the option the Pentagon and Washington generally favoured. It involved nearly as big an adjustment by Tokyo as by Canberra. Unfortunately, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was unable to motivate Mitsubishi to embrace the project in the way he wanted. The Japanese never offered us the full Soryu and their first offering actually ­involved metal that was inferior to the metal in the Collins-class subs."

Het gehele artikel is het lezen waard!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/idea-of-an-australian-nuclear-submarine-fleet-just-wont-float/news-story/dd5123c0be52dffb4ec161dd2789be3c

Mourning

Dat weet ik wel zeker. Ik heb het overigens ook niet over een volledig akkoestisch profiel, maar meer van een aantal innovaties, materialen of noviteiten men gebruik (wil) gaan maken en dat is lang niet allemaal zwaar ''classified''.
"The only thing necessary for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"- Edmund Burke
"War is the continuation of politics by all other means", Carl von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege/On War (1830).

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: Mourning op 02/05/2016 | 16:27 uur
Ja, heb je helemaal gelijk in. Ik gaf zelf ook al aan dat m.b.t. bijv. de akkoestiek eigenlijk niets in het overzicht is opgenomen. Misschien is de Soryu veel stiller.... geen idee hoor, maar ja.

Ik heb zo het vermoeden dat je een akoestisch overzicht tot het geclassificeerde domein behoort.

Mourning

Ja, heb je helemaal gelijk in. Ik gaf zelf ook al aan dat m.b.t. bijv. de akkoestiek eigenlijk niets in het overzicht is opgenomen. Misschien is de Soryu veel stiller.... geen idee hoor, maar ja.
"The only thing necessary for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"- Edmund Burke
"War is the continuation of politics by all other means", Carl von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege/On War (1830).

Kaaskop2

Citaat van: Mourning op 02/05/2016 | 15:57 uur
Moet zeggen dat dat plaatje met een aantal basiscapabilities van elke sub me beter doet begrijpen waarom de Soryu het uiteindelijk niet geworden is. Overigens nog steeds een zeer goede sub lijkt me en m.b.t. de akkoestiek staat eigenlijk niets vermeld in het overzichtje...

De Soryu-klasse is specifiek voor de Japanse wensen ontworpen, hetgeen resulteert in een relatief klein actieradius en niet "te offensieve" wapensystemen (conform Japanse grondwet). Overigens wordt men door dat overzichtje ten aanzien van een aantal aspecten op het verkeerde been gezet. Zo hadden de eerste versies van de Soryu-klasse hadden bijvoorbeeld ook een AIP, maar inmiddels zijn de Japanners overgestapt op Li-ion-batterijen (hetgeen het overzichtje impliceert als iets 'slechts', terwijl het de volgende stap is).

Mourning

Moet zeggen dat dat plaatje met een aantal basiscapabilities van elke sub me beter doet begrijpen waarom de Soryu het uiteindelijk niet geworden is. Overigens nog steeds een zeer goede sub lijkt me en m.b.t. de akkoestiek staat eigenlijk niets vermeld in het overzichtje...
"The only thing necessary for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"- Edmund Burke
"War is the continuation of politics by all other means", Carl von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege/On War (1830).

Harald

How France sank Japan's $40 billion Australian submarine dream

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-submarines-japan-defence-in-idUSKCN0XQ1FC

Crucially, in April 2015, DCNS hired Costello, who had earlier that year lost his job as chief of staff of Australia's Defence Ministry in the wake of Johnston's resignation.

A former navy submariner who had also been the general manager for strategy at state-run Australian submarine firm ASC, Costello was ideally placed to lead a bid.

Had the Japanese called first, Costello would have likely have accepted an offer to head their bid, according to a source who knows Costello. "They didn't pick up the phone," he said. Costello declined to speak publicly about the bid.

Costello's team drew up a list of a dozen tasks DCNS needed to complete to win the deal, including the critical job of winning over U.S. defense companies Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) and Raytheon Co (RTN.N), one of which will eventually build the submarine's combat system.

In a final coordinated push, a huge delegation of French government and business leaders visited Australia a month ago, touting the economic benefits of their bid.


Harald

Kwam nog deze vergelijking tegen van de verschillende aanbiedingen in de vervangingsrace van de Collins klasse


http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2015/05/15/1227356/703500-345b9970-fad0-11e4-8bbc-a4e8f2601378.jpg

de uitslag is nu bekend, maar ..... is er in-side informatie door gespeeld ?? ..

Former senior defence adviser now heading French sub builder

A former senior government adviser who enjoyed privileged access to top-secret information about the navy's future submarine project has taken a high paid job with one of three foreign contenders for the $20 billion plus contract.

Sean Costello was chief-of-staff to former Defence Minister David Johnston and left his $250,000-a-year government job in January this year.

He began work in April — just four months later — as Chief Executive Officer with French Government shipbuilder DCNS Australia.

The firm is engaged in a "competitive evaluation process" for the Navy's future submarine contract alongside Germany's Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) and Japan's Soryu Class boat.

.....

voor het gehele artikel, zie onderstaande link
http://www.news.com.au/national/former-senior-defence-adviser-now-heading-french-sub-builder/news-story/9afdad459b857261f019743a7cd1165e

Zeewier

Wapenindustrie is Franse banenmachine
Frankrijk krijgt het 'contract van de eeuw': de bouw van twaalf onderzeeërs voor Australië. Met dank aan de socialistische regering.
Peter Vermaas
27 april 2016


De schroef van een duikboot.
Foto Reuters/Stephane Mahe

Het Duitse ThyssenKrupp was in de race, evenals het Japanse Mitsubishi. Maar Australië koos voor Frankrijk. Voor 34,3 miljard euro bouwt defensiebedrijf DCNS voor de Australische marine twaalf onderzeeërs. De boten worden weliswaar in Australië geassembleerd, maar ook in Frankrijk komen er ,,duizenden" banen bij, zei minister van Defensie Jean-Yves Le Drian dinsdag.

Met het ,,contract van de eeuw", zoals Franse media schrijven, bewees de rechterhand van president François Hollande opnieuw zijn kwaliteiten als lobbyist voor de Franse defensie-industrie. Sinds de socialisten in 2012 het landsbestuur overnamen, is het aantal wapenverkopen verdubbeld ten opzichte van de jaren onder Hollandes voorganger Nicolas Sarkozy.

Frankrijk was tussen 2011 en 2015 volgens het Stockholm Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) na de VS, Rusland en China al de vierde wapenexporteur in de wereld. Na bestellingen vorig jaar van 84 Rafale-straaljagers door Egypte, Qatar en India en nu de order uit Australië, verstevigt de Franse industrie zijn positie.

Uitgerekend grootindustrieel Serge Dassault, de man achter Rafale-producent Dassault Aviation, noemde Le Drian onlangs ,,de beste minister van Defensie ooit". Hij bedankte de socialisten omstandig voor hun hulp bij de straaljagerverkoop. Dassault is een vriend van Sarkozy en senator voor diens conservatieve Republikeinen. Maar: ,,We zijn altijd beter behandeld door linkse regeringen dan door die van rechts", liet Dassault-topman Charles Edelstenne zich in weekblad L'Obs ontvallen. Ook onder president Mitterrand in de jaren negentig deden Franse wapenbedrijven goede zaken.

Net als bijvoorbeeld de nucleaire sector draagt de wapenindustrie voor veel Fransen bij aan grandeur en soevereiniteit. Anders dan in Duitsland bestaat in Frankrijk, zelfs in linkse kringen, weinig aversie tegen militaire leveranties, ook niet aan landen met een discutabele democratische reputatie zoals Saoedi-Arabië, een van de belangrijkste Franse klanten.

Dat heeft vooral te maken met banen, zegt SIPRI-onderzoeker Pieter Wezeman aan de telefoon. In de Franse wapenindustrie werken zo'n 165.000 mensen en de recente orders leveren volgens het ministerie in drie jaar 60.000 nieuwe arbeidsplekken op. Door de overheidsbemoeienis (DCNS is voor 63 procent in staatshanden) is de wapenindustrie bovendien een van de weinige sectoren waar de staat via diplomatieke kanalen direct invloed op kan uitoefenen

http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/04/27/wapenindustrie-is-franse-banenmachine-1615484