Opvolger Walrusklasse

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

Poland, Norway Could Team on Sub Program

By Jaroslaw Adamowski and Gerard O'Dwyer
September 27, 2015

WARSAW and HELSINKI — Poland is planning to purchase three submarines armed with cruise missiles by 2023 and the Defense Ministry is considering a joint procurement with other NATO member states, with Norway as a potential partner.

Zie link:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/naval/submarines/2015/09/27/poland-norway-could-team-sub-program/32555687/

[Zeewier]

JSM sub launched update

Alex Pape, Kiel, Germany - IHS Jane's Missiles & Rockets
16 September 2015
 
Kongsberg showcased a new submarine launched configuration for its NSM at the BME in Gdansk. Source: Remigiusz Wilk
Norway's Kongsberg outlined additional features and the possible path ahead for its proposed submarine-launched variant of the Naval Strike Missile (and Nytt Sjomalsmissile: NSM) at the Subcon 2015 conference on submarine technology organised by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) in Kiel, Germany, every four years.

The development of a submarine-launched variant was first reported by IHS Jane's in early 2013, and a mock-up was noted at exhibitions and company presentations in mid-2014.

The sub-surface launched variant is currently being developed by industry as a self-funded project, said Kongberg's Jarle Naess, and aims to provide submarines with a long-range, stand-off strike capability, including in denied environments where the (otherwise network enabled) missile will rely on its stealthy design, dual-mode passive infrared sensor, and autonomous target recognition, in particular.

The company aims to develop the missile in parallel to the Royal Norwegian Navy's (RNoN's) future submarine project, which does not yet include a requirement for this kind of capability; however, it is expected to at least be fitted for it.

The pre-development phase is currently projected to take around four to five years, through to around 2020. "This will include work to define requirements, define sub-system requirements, and some design and prototyping activity," noted Naess.

This would be followed by a four-year development phase around 2020-24, integration efforts in the 2024-26 timeframe, and initial operational capability in the 2026-28 timeframe (again matching the projected RNoN submarine timeline).

At present Kongsberg is partnered with Babcock, which is looking at the weapon integration aspects and development of the underwater launch capsule; Nammo will be tasked with booster section development. Kongsberg has now also partnered with TKMS, whose submarine exports may provide an important conduit for sales of the new missile.

The missile itself is to be adapted from the air-launched Joint Strike Missile (JSM) variant, which features a number of modifications compared with the NSM on account of being designed to fit into the internal weapons bay of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, including a longer, re-shaped fuselage, and Williams F107 turbojet engine.

http://www.janes.com/article/54343/jsm-sub-launched-update

[Zeewier]

http://www.janes.com/article/54292/germany-italy-may-increase-submarine-fleets

Was toch al bekend dat Duitsland voor 3 stuks meer gingen of was dat nieuws nog niet openbaar? Ze hebben het (te) druk met het opleiden van Grieken, Portugezen en Koreanen. Goed dat de Italianen vervanging krijgen voor de afgeschreven Sauro-klasse.

Moet NL ook rekening mee houden, het afoefenen (opleiden) van buitenlands marinepersoneel. Kost uiteindelijk toch inzetbare capaciteit. Dus een 5e sub...

[Reinier]

http://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Miljoenennota-2015-en-Defensie-150615.html

Opnieuw gelogenstraft door de realiteit....

Gelukkig staat er niet dat er schepen verkocht gaan worden of projecten gecanceld worden.
Op zich al een hele verbetering t.o.v. voorgaande jaren.

Lees ook de meest recente Defensiekrant (15/09). Prioriteit ligt nu om de basis gereedheid van de gehele defensie eerst weer op orde te krijgen.

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

http://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Miljoenennota-2015-en-Defensie-150615.html

Opnieuw gelogenstraft door de realiteit....

Helaas....

Het neemt niet weg dar de A brief voor de Walrus vervanger dit jaar naar de kamer zal moeten, mede omdat de Noren wat haast beginnen te krijgen.

[DvdW]

Dat was de doelstelling... ik begrijp dat deze voor dit jaar prioriteit heeft... de uitspraak is "in ieder geval dit jaar". Een gelijksoortige uitspraak staat voor het MFF vervangingsdossier. De A brief de mijnenjagers vervangers valt dit jaar niet meer te verwachten.

Voor beide onderwerpen, in he bijzonder voor de Walrus vervanger, begin de tijd te dringen, met namen omdat Noorwegen inmiddels verder is dan Nederland.

Voor de marine zijn de magere jaren zeker niet voorbij. In de Memorie van Toelichting die vandaag verscheen staat -vanaf pagina 102- dat het één en ander gewijzigd is op gebied van investeringsprojecten. Daaruit blijkt dat de vervanging van de M-fregatten, de landing platform docks, de onderzeeboten én de mijnenbestrijdingsvaartuigen "met één of meerdere jaren" vertraagd zijn.

http://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Miljoenennota-2015-en-Defensie-150615.html

Opnieuw gelogenstraft door de realiteit....

[Harald]

De geruchten worden sterker omtrent samenwerking NO , PO en NL .... een goede zaak, samenwerking zoeken, maar moet niet ten koste gaan van de gestelde (NL) eisen aan de Walrus-vervanger.

Norway May go Dutch with Poland on Subs    (leuke woordspeling in de titel  )

September 10/15: Norway and Poland are engaged in talks over a possible joint procurement of submarines, according to Norwegian press reports . As Norway debates how best to go about replacing its fleet of Ula-class subs, the Poles are reportedly seeking out European partners for a joint acquisition. The Polish Navy requires three new boats to enter service in the mid-2020s, with the Netherlands eyed as another possible partner. The Norwegian Ministry of Defence decided in December 2014 that the Ula-class subs would have their lives extended to 35 years – out to 2020 – with the replacement program currently in a project definition phase.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ula-tech-norways-next-submarine-fleet-07609/

Norway and Poland to Enter in Submarine Cooperation
http://www.tnp.no/norway/economy/5071-norway-and-poland-to-enter-in-submarine-cooperation

Poland may buy submarines with other NATO members -minister
"We are considering obtaining submarines, for instance together with Norway or the Netherlands,"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/06/poland-nato-submarine-idUSL5N11C0AM20150906

[Huzaar1]

En toch doen ze het in de meeste van hun recente ontwerpen.

Akkoord, ze verschuiven hierin, dat is uit pure noodzaak.
Maar Nederland wil er zo'n grote hand in hebben dat het het hele ontwerp van de onderzeeër zou aanpassen. Dat lijkt me onwaarschijnlijk.

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

Is wel ruim groter dan de Walrus, lijkt me niet dat die te klein is?

Nu kan ik mij vergissen maar...

Scorpène-class submarine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorp%C3%A8ne-class_submarine

[dudge]

Frans ontwerp? Never nooit niet, de Fransen zullen co-creatie nooit toestaan.

En toch doen ze het in de meeste van hun recente ontwerpen.

[Huzaar1]

Franse onderzeeërs voor NL?
Never nooit niet, de Fransen zullen co-creatie nooit toestaan.
Ze gaan het vast en zeker aanbieden maar het gaat niet door want ;

A. Franse trots
B. Franse dominantie
C. Franse scheepswerven
D. Frans ontwerp
E. Franse banen
F. Fransen
G. Fransen

[dudge]

Aanbieden zal me niets verbazen, zoals de Engelsen hun Type 26 aan de Duitse marine zullen aanbieden in een kansloze missie, los hiervan: de Fransoos zal vermoedelijk niet voldoen aan de Nederlandse ambitie, de boot is te klein.

Is wel ruim groter dan de Walrus, lijkt me niet dat die te klein is?

En daarbij, waarom zouden ze een kansloze missie ondernemen? Kost ook gewoon geld, zie het hele JSF debacle, de Fransen gaan alleen aanbieden als ze denken dat er een reeele kans is. En die is er wel, maar niet zolang NL met Noorwegen en straks misschien Polen in de boot stapt. Maar als die twee uitstappen of een ander parcours opgaan zal DCNS zich wel weer melden, eventueel met een voorstel om in Nederland te bouwen.

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

Misschien, maar dan wel pas als onze zelfdoe ambitie in elkaar geklapt is, en dat zal alleen gebeuren als Noorwegen overstag gaat.

Aanbieden zal me niets verbazen, zoals de Engelsen hun Type 26 aan de Duitse marine zullen aanbieden in een kansloze missie, los hiervan: de Fransoos zal vermoedelijk niet voldoen aan de Nederlandse ambitie, de boot is te klein.

[dudge]

Nog wat Frans nieuws, spelen in op de Poolse vraag naar onderzeeboten, zal DCNS deze SSK ook aan NL en NO aanbieden ? 

Misschien, maar dan wel pas als onze zelfdoe ambitie in elkaar geklapt is, en dat zal alleen gebeuren als Noorwegen overstag gaat.

[Harald]

Nog wat Frans nieuws, spelen in op de Poolse vraag naar onderzeeboten, zal DCNS deze SSK ook aan NL en NO aanbieden ? 

DCNS is Showcasing the Scorpene Submarine with Cruise Missile and AIP technology at MSPO 2015

DCNS is featuring the Scorpene diesel-electric submarine (SSK) at MSPO 2015, the International Defence Industry Exhibition in Poland which takes place in Kielce, Poland, from the 1 to 4 September 2015. DCNS proposes to the Polish Navy the sea proven Scorpene class submarine for the Orka program. Featuring a highly performing acoustic discretion, an increased submerged autonomy thanks to the latest-generation air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology, the Scorpene has the capacity to deploy MBDA's Naval Cruise Missile (NCM).




The specific conditions of the Baltic Sea are favourable for the use of submarines and make them very difficult to detect, unlike land and air platforms for launching deterrent weapons. The ability to operate underwater for several weeks, provided by air-independent propulsion systems, in particular, makes undetectable and omnipresent modern submarines the most effective carriers of cruise missiles.

Cruise missile submarines, such as the Scorpene built by DCNS, have an effective offensive weapon system able to provide the deterrent capability wanted by Poland. This deterrence does not require a large number of missiles. The important factor is the ability to strike critical targets, with a high probability of success, within a radius of several hundred kilometres around the waters in which submarines can hide. No other weapon system can provide this capability.

The cruise missile submarines will provide a guarantee of national protection. Furthermore, they will reinforce the diplomatic weight of Poland on the international stage. The fact that the Polish armed forces have the capability to launch cruise missiles from submarines will have a significant influence for Poland within NATO and the European Union, where only a few countries possess this capability. Poland will thus be able to join a very select club of countries with influence on the international stage.

Talking to Navy Recognition, Xavier Mesnet (Surface Ship and Submarine Marketing Director at DCNS) explained that there will be important transfer or technology for the construction of the submarines in Poland. "We want to give Poland full autonomy and full sovereignty on its submarines. This is covered by two aspects: The first one is Naval Cruise Missile that will give deterrence capability and the second aspect is autonomous propulsion with the fuel cell AIP designed by DCNS."

With the planned decommissioning of the Polish Navy's four Kobben (Type 207) class submarines by the end of 2016 and of the ORP Orzel (Kilo class) in 2022, DCNS has a solution to maintain the skills of Polish Navy sailors until the next generation of submarines are operational.

The ability to strike strategic and military targets with exceptional precision from extended stand-off ranges has become a key operational requirement. MBDA's experience in this area has already been proven with the development and entry into service of the Storm Shadow / SCALP air-launched cruise missile. This combat-proven missile system, with its unmatched capabilities, was the result of a multi-national European programme (France, Italy and the UK). Bringing together these European skills, MBDA is now developing NCM to meet the requirement issued by the French Ministry of Defence for a long-range cruise missile capable of being launched from surface ships and submarines.

In December 2006, MBDA was awarded a contract from the DGA for the development and production of the NCM. The very first firing took place from a Sylver A70 VLS system (same as on the FREMM Frigates) in May 2010. The first sub-surface test firing occured in June 2011. MBDA started mass production of the missile in 2015. IOC (initial operating capability) was achieved for the FREMM Frigates this year as well with the first live launch from Aquitaine frigate on May 19. IOC for the Barracuda next generation SSNs of the French Navy is planned for 2018.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/september-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/3061-dcns-is-showcasing-the-scorpene-submarine-with-cruise-missile-and-aip-technology-at-mspo-2015.html