Spanningen tussen China en India

Gestart door jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter), 23/09/2014 | 09:34 uur

Elzenga

Citaat van: Thomasen op 25/09/2014 | 22:58 uur
Een grensoorlog tussen India en China is ook nog heel wat anders dan een All-out-war tussen deze twee kernmachten. Dergelijke schermutselingen zijn er wel vaker natuurlijk. Niet alleen daar, maar ook tussen India en Pakistan (Kashmir), of eigenlijk tussen de meeste landen op deze planeet. Doorgaans blijft het bij wat schotenwisselingen. En soms krijgen we er nog wat van mee. Bijvoorbeeld als er wat cultureel erfgoed in gedrang is (Cambodja Thailand) of als er een stomme reden is (eoa midden Amerikaans land dat Google maps als legitimatie gebruikte). Het gevaar is natuurlijk wel dat het kán escaleren, en flink ook. En als dat gebeurd moeten wij klaar zijn om echt onze belangen te gaan beschermen.
Precies. En wel onze EUropese belangen. Het zou zo maar kunnen dat er bijvoorbeeld VN-troepen daar tussen beide moeten komen. En dan zal een EUropese bijdrage ook wenselijk zijn.

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: Thomasen op 25/09/2014 | 22:58 uur
Het gevaar is natuurlijk wel dat het kán escaleren, en flink ook. En als dat gebeurd moeten wij klaar zijn om echt onze belangen te gaan beschermen.


Exact, en we zitten met Europa nu al op of over onze taks.

dudge

Citaat van: jurrien visser op 25/09/2014 | 22:39 uur
Tja....   :sick:

Daarnaast heb ik het over "interessante" tijden, niet alleen betrekking hebbende op Z/O Azië maar kijkend na de nu voorspelbare ellende voor de aankomende periode.

Ons mengen in een conflict in Z/O Azië lijkt mij idd niet zo zinvol al zullen we er in het voorkomende geval veel last van hebben. (het wordt misschien anders als Australië bedreigt wordt, maar dat is vooralsnog niet aan de orde)

Een grensoorlog tussen India en China is ook nog heel wat anders dan een All-out-war tussen deze twee kernmachten. Dergelijke schermutselingen zijn er wel vaker natuurlijk. Niet alleen daar, maar ook tussen India en Pakistan (Kashmir), of eigenlijk tussen de meeste landen op deze planeet. Doorgaans blijft het bij wat schotenwisselingen. En soms krijgen we er nog wat van mee. Bijvoorbeeld als er wat cultureel erfgoed in gedrang is (Cambodja Thailand) of als er een stomme reden is (eoa midden Amerikaans land dat Google maps als legitimatie gebruikte). Het gevaar is natuurlijk wel dat het kán escaleren, en flink ook. En als dat gebeurd moeten wij klaar zijn om echt onze belangen te gaan beschermen.

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: Thomasen op 25/09/2014 | 22:31 uur
Ik geloof niet dat wij ons direct moeten mengen in een conflict tussen India en China.
We helpen ze natuurlijk een beetje, terwijl China over acht carriers droomt en India rondjes in de ruimte vliegt ontvangen beide nog het nodige aan ontwikkelingshulp. Niet onbelangrijk natuurlijk.

Tja....   :sick:

Daarnaast heb ik het over "interessante" tijden, niet alleen betrekking hebbende op Z/O Azië maar kijkend na de nu voorspelbare ellende voor de aankomende periode.

Ons mengen in een conflict in Z/O Azië lijkt mij idd niet zo zinvol al zullen we er in het voorkomende geval veel last van hebben. (het wordt misschien anders als Australië bedreigt wordt, maar dat is vooralsnog niet aan de orde)


dudge

Citaat van: jurrien visser op 25/09/2014 | 21:40 uur
Met 2% van het BNP kunnen we ons, voor onze omvang en draagkracht voldoende mensen (met fatsoenlijke voorwaarden) en middelen veroorloven en het is niet eens een luxe!

Ik geloof niet dat wij ons direct moeten mengen in een conflict tussen India en China.
We helpen ze natuurlijk een beetje, terwijl China over acht carriers droomt en India rondjes in de ruimte vliegt ontvangen beide nog het nodige aan ontwikkelingshulp. Niet onbelangrijk natuurlijk.

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: Oorlogsvis op 25/09/2014 | 21:00 uur
klopt het wordt tijd om het def budget te verhogen of we het nou leuk vinden of niet...we moeten onze vrijheden toch kunnen verdedigen he !
Dat gaat niet met 1 brigade, 37  JSF en 6 fregatten ben ik bang...... :devil:

Met 2% van het BNP kunnen we ons, voor onze omvang en draagkracht voldoende mensen (met fatsoenlijke voorwaarden) en middelen veroorloven en het is niet eens een luxe!

Lex

Citaat van: Oorlogsvis op 23/09/2014 | 11:22 uur
Heb net CNN gekeken en gisteravond ook ..nergens is media aandacht voor dit verhaal, zitten de journalisten te slapen ofzo ? dit kan uitmonden tot een groot conflict. :devil:
De media draait om kijkcijfers/pecunia; derhalve als er niets te verdienen valt. Trek uw conclusie.  ;)

Oorlogsvis

Citaat van: jurrien visser op 25/09/2014 | 20:34 uur
Het zijn/worden "interessante" tijden.
klopt het wordt tijd om het def budget te verhogen of we het nou leuk vinden of niet...we moeten onze vrijheden toch kunnen verdedigen he !
Dat gaat niet met 1 brigade, 37  JSF en 6 fregatten ben ik bang...... :devil:

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: Harald op 25/09/2014 | 20:11 uur
Precies. Poetin zal nu de goodguy zijn en China zal nu de badguy uithangen en bij de grens van India of in de wateren rondom China weer het nodige claimen.

Het zijn/worden "interessante" tijden.

Harald

Precies. Poetin zal nu de goodguy zijn en China zal nu de badguy uithangen en bij de grens van India of in de wateren rondom China weer het nodige claimen.

Enforcer

Oekraine is in de achtertuin en dus wel in het nieuws. China kopieert nu Rusland. Was te verwachten.

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: Thomasen op 23/09/2014 | 12:22 uur
Dat kan inderdaad. Tegelijkertijd is het ook niks nieuws. Er zijn daar gewoonweg meningsverschillen over waar de grens precies loopt. En dat is niets nieuws onder de zon, niet voor niets zitten daar allemaal militairen weggestopt op die gletsjers.

De retoriek is de laatste dagen scherp toe genomen...

dudge

Citaat van: Oorlogsvis op 23/09/2014 | 11:22 uur
Heb net CNN gekeken en gisteravond ook ..nergens is media aandacht voor dit verhaal, zitten de journalisten te slapen ofzo ? dit kan uitmonden tot een groot conflict. :devil:

Dat kan inderdaad. Tegelijkertijd is het ook niks nieuws. Er zijn daar gewoonweg meningsverschillen over waar de grens precies loopt. En dat is niets nieuws onder de zon, niet voor niets zitten daar allemaal militairen weggestopt op die gletsjers.

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Citaat van: Oorlogsvis op 23/09/2014 | 11:22 uur
Heb net CNN gekeken en gisteravond ook ..nergens is media aandacht voor dit verhaal, zitten de journalisten te slapen ofzo ? dit kan uitmonden tot een groot conflict. :devil:

Dat vind ik ook zo opvallend.

Oorlogsvis

Heb net CNN gekeken en gisteravond ook ..nergens is media aandacht voor dit verhaal, zitten de journalisten te slapen ofzo ? dit kan uitmonden tot een groot conflict. :devil:

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Modi should take Chinese war-talk seriously; it's straight out of 'The Art of War'

by R Jagannathan  Sep 23, 2014

When the Chinese President Xi Jinping tells his army generals to be prepared for a regional war, India should take notice. And remain eternally on guard.

Not that we aren't currently alert to the threat. We can't afford to take things lightly when Chinese troops are even now trying to secure vantage points in the Chumar region of eastern Ladakh and the Indian army brass is engaged in dealing with the incursions. But even when (and if) this crisis is behind us, India needs to pay more attention to China than ever. The Chinese take non-belligerent behaviour as a sign of weakness. They will see it as encouragement to push their luck further next time.

A Hindustan Times report today (23 September) tells us that the Chinese have reduced their strength at one point in Chumar (Point 30R) and strengthened it elsewhere (Point 4991). The point of this kind of pull-here-push-there manoeuvre should be obvious: the Chinese are testing all points of Indian defences and building up a corresponding strength, complete with infrastructure support. They are also testing our willpower, our staying power: how much can they push and gain something without war.

They want to pressure us to a point where we end up pulling back and there will be enough peaceniks in India asking us why are we fighting over a piece of barren land. The Chinese have too many "useful idiots" on our side while we have none on theirs. This is Xi's real purpose – to give the impression of preparing for war, so that enough peace-mongers on our side start worrying about it and start yelling 'peace in our time'.

Did Chinese President Xi Jinping (left) give PM Narendra Modi (right) the wrong impression during his visit to India? Agencies
Did Chinese President Xi Jinping (left) give PM Narendra Modi (right) the wrong impression during his visit to India? Agencies

China is Narendra Modi's biggest foreign policy and defence challenge, and he should know that only strong resolve will help us negotiate this ever-present threat.

Modi should also remember that the Chinese invented the art of winning a war without actually waging it, with Sun Tzu's classic, The Art of War, being an idea drilled into every Chinese general. The key elements of Sun Tzu's approach to war are the following: war is necessary for success; but a successful war must be short and decisive in order to be worth it and to ensure no economic damage is caused; so planning and execution are key; sowing confusion in the enemy even while maintaining unity in your own ranks are additional elements in the Sun Tzu scheme of waging war.

This is exactly what happened in 1962, when the Chinese waged war on us for a few weeks, and then withdrew from most areas barring the ones of strategic importance to them in Ladakh (Aksai Chin).

Even now, Xi Jinping's statements are one of a piece with Sun Tzu's tactics. This is what Jinping is supposed to have told his generals in the People's Liberation Army (PLA): "Headquarters of PLA forces must have absolute loyalty and firm faith in the Communist Party of China, guarantee a smooth chain of command and make sure all decisions from the central leadership are fully implemented." Xi also exhorted his generals to ensure that "PLA forces improve their combat readiness and sharpen their ability to win a regional war in the age of information technology."

In short, unity back home, and a readiness to wage war on all fronts, including cyber warfare.

The Chinese have already put in place the logistics needed to intimidate the Indian forces in Ladakh by building up infrastructure. According to Hindustan Times, the PLA held war games some 70 km away from Chumar's line of control eight months ago, and the "exercise was conducted in a 'war zone concept' of the Chinese army, with real time intelligence and direct contact with headquarters in Beijing." The report also quotes sources in Leh as saying the Chinese have "already built a motorable track to point 4912 and are now trying to extend it to point 4991, which is close to Beijing's perception of LAC."

The barbarians are already at (or inside) the gate, and it makes no sense for India to pretend that all is, or can ever be, hunky-dory with China. All the camaraderie about twin states and twin cities between Gujarat and Guangdong and Ahmedabad and Guangzhou is intended to lull India into a false belief that the Chinese are more interested in trade than in acquiring more territory from India in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.

The Chinese always let trade and aggressive territorial claims work in parallel, with rising trade giving the other partner an assurance that the Chinese cannot want to jeopardise all this by initiating a war or an eyeball-to-eyeball on the border.

We should never be fooled like Nehru was in 1962. The Chinese will launch any war that they think they can win, or they believe will stay below the threshold of serious economic pain. This is what Xi asked the PLA to prepare for.

As I have explained in an earlier article, the Chinese have had a bloody and brutal ability to wage intimidation and war, having done so all through their history in order to achieve political unity and a common culture.

Let me quote from Francis Fukuyama's The Origins of Political Order to show how the Chinese regularly fought wars among themselves and with their enemies. About one particularly ferocious war period in Chinese history, Fukuyama writes: "When compared to other warlike societies, China's bloody record during the Eastern Zhou (from 770 BC onwards) stands out. One scholar has calculated that in the 294-year duration of the Spring and Autumn period (a period in history stretching from 770 BC to 476 BC), more than 1,211 wars were fought between and among Chinese states... During the subsequent 254 years...468 wars took place, with only 89 peaceful years." That's more than four wars every year.

Contrast this with our bloodiest war in history – Emperor Ashoka's Kalinga war. The sight of so much killing affected the monarch so much that he completely turned away from war, and became a pacifist Buddhist. Not surprisingly, his empire was soon to become history.

From ancient times to Mao Zedong's Communist revolution, China has successfully mobilised large sections of its population for war. India has never managed this ever. Xi Jinping can mobilise his people for war better than India.

This is what we are up against. Modi cannot afford to assume that the Chinese will be mollified by soft words and some trade possibilities. He has his work cut out, and he cannot afford to ever let India's guard down. Put the border standoff at Chumar and Jinping's talk of fighting a regional war, and this is a transparent attempt to intimidate us to yield without a war. We have to both stand our ground and prepare for real war. We can't afford the Nehruvian non-strategy of playing border games without preparing for war.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/modi-take-chinese-war-talk-seriously-straight-sun-tzu-1725823.html

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Indian Army told to retaliate against China with same intensity

India TV News Desk [ Updated 23 Sep 2014

New Delhi: As China gets more and more aggressive on the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the Indian army has been instructed to reciprocate with the same intensity Tuesday.

More troops have been deployed by India in Chumar and the army has been asked to maintain forward deployment at the forward area (LAC)

All the battalions of Ladakh are already put on high alert as Chinese helicopters made several surveillances in the area. 

Some army men of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China went back and some were replaced this morning.

China is getting increasingly combative hence Indian troops are holding forth with equal force. Around 1000 Chinese soldiers are battling against an equal number of Indian troops at Chumar in eastern Ladakh for the past couple of days. Due to this Army Chief General Dalbir Singh had to cancel his visit to Bhutan Monday.

The government has now decided to send in more troops as the standoff persists.
In a tough reaction to Chinese Army repeatedly making incursion into the Chumar sector of Ladakh, the Indian government has called off an India-China Media Exchange which was scheduled to take place later this week in Delhi.

Government has abruptly withdrawn clearances for Chinese journalists who were coming to Delhi this week for exchange of thoughts with Indian scribes. An India-China media dialogue is an annual practice.

"Due to unavoidable complications, we have had to postpone the India-China Media Exchange. But for now, it stands cancelled," the organisers told participating Indian journalists.

Despite the reported assurance by Chinese President Xi Jinping, who concluded his three-day visit to India on Friday, the stand-off in Chumar area of Ladakh continued.
Chumar, the last village in Ladakh area bordering Himachal Pradesh, has been a bone of contention with China claiming it to be its own territory and has been frequenting the area with helicopter incursions almost every year.

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/indian-army-told-to-retaliate-against-china-with-same-intensity-42337.html

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

Xi Jinping Hints at Regional War With India? Deja vu 1962 Scenario?

Tuesday, September 23, 2014

In a rare deja vu of events in1961 when an enraged Chinese Premier Chou En-lai rushed back home from the NAM summit in New Delhi after finding Nehru's opinion on Tibet "too harsh" that spilled into the hostile 1962 war, Chinese President Xi Jinping just finished his "friendly" visit to India last week but shocked India when he openly directed the People's Liberation Army to be combat ready to win a "regional war", hinting at India.

In a rare speech, Xi, who is also the Chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC) and the General Secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC), said, "Headquarters of all People's Liberation Army (PLA) forces should improve their combat readiness and sharpen their ability to win a regional war in the age of information technology," reported the state-run Xinhua news agency.

Xi's address to reassert his control and authority over the Chinese army is understandable, but his reference to the "regional war" at a time when New Delhi is engaging in close ties with Japan and Vietnam and its open utterances against Beijing's adventurism in the South China Sea cannot be ignored, going by what happened in the past.

Ever since the 1962 war, China and India are engaged in constant flare ups along the borders and China refuses to accept India's sovereignty over Arunachal Pradesh and the Chinese troops often intrude into Indian borders in a high-altitude military face-off at Chumar in eastern Ladakh along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), as reports said.

While a new standoff took took place on Sunday with the PLA putting up seven tents inside the Indian territory, on Monday came a pat from the Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunyin that both President XI and Prime Minister Modi have reached key understanding to resolve the border issue through friendly mechanism.

In fact, the 1962 war took place in two zones, one at Aksai Chin (Jammu & Kashmir) and the other at NEFA (North East Frontier Agency, currently Arunachal Pradesh) border and more than 1,300 Indian soldiers and about 500 Chinese troops were killed. India lost the war and Nehru remained silent ever after about India's war-preparedness.

President Xi's hint at "regional war" is unwelcome and India should clarify with its counterparts in China and keep the nation informed unlike what Nehru did in 1962, speaking high about the country's war-preparedness that was never true, especially in hilly icy mountain areas.

In the war, Indian troops were using World War One period .303 rifles while the Chinese troops were equipped with machine guns, mortars and automatic rifles. Nehru was reluctant to import arms citing Non-alignment stance beset with Gandhi's ahimsa policy.

http://www.microfinancemonitor.com/2014/09/23/xi-jinping-hints-at-regional-war-with-india-deja-vu-1962-scenario/

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

As China pushes, Indian troops make tactical retreat at one spot

Rajat Pandit & Deeptiman Tiwary,TNN | Sep 23, 2014

NEW DELHI: China is getting increasingly aggressive on the border even as Indian troops hold forth with equal force. The continuing high-altitude military faceoff at Chumar in eastern Ladakh, with around 1,000 Chinese soldiers ranged against an equal number of Indian troops in sub-zero temperatures for the last 12 days, has led Army chief General Dalbir Singh Suhag to cancel his proposed visit to Bhutan.

Zie:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/As-China-pushes-Indian-troops-make-tactical-retreat-at-one-spot/articleshow/43182812.cms

jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)

#1
Jinping Asks PLA to Be 'Combat Ready' to Win 'Regional War'

K J M Verma | Beijing | Sep 22, 2014

Chinese President Xi Jinping today asked the People's Liberation Army (PLA) to be combat ready to win a "regional war" and make sure that all decisions from the central leadership are strictly followed.

"Headquarters of PLA forces must have absolute loyalty and firm faith in the Communist Party of China, guarantee a smooth chain of command and make sure all decisions from the central leadership are fully implemented," said Xi, chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC) and the General Secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC).

"Headquarters of all PLA forces should improve their combat readiness and sharpen their ability to win a regional war in the age of information technology," Xi, who returned from India last week after a three-day visit, was quoted as saying by the state-run Xinhua news agency.

Though this is not the first time that Xi has asked the PLA to be ready for a "regional war", his statement assumes significance in the context of repeated incursions into Indian territory along the Line of Actual Control which cast a shadow during his visit.

All PLA forces should follow the instructions of President Xi and update their operations to meet new goals and missions set by the CMC, an official statement said.

It is not yet clear why the emphasis was made on absolute loyalty and to follow the orders to ensure smooth chain of command.

Xi's directives come in the midst of a standoff between the PLA and Indian troops in Chumar area in Ladakh region along the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

The standoff took a new turn yesterday with the PLA pitching seven tents well within the Indian territory and showing no signs of withdrawing from the territory.

Xi, 61, acquired the image of China's most powerful leader after Deng Xiaoping, who succeeded Mao, as he headed the Presidency, the CPC and the military from day one of coming to power unlike his predecessor Hu Jintao.

Since then, Xi has reshuffled the military postings of the generals loyal to him at the top and removed and prosecuted some top PLA generals for corruption.

Yesterday, General Fang Fenghui, PLA chief, said in a statement that all PLA forces follow the instructions of President Xi who is also the chairman of the CMC, which is the overall high command of the Chinese military.

Fang said the forces should update their operations to meet new goals and missions set by the CMC.

Meanwhile, the PLA chiefs of staff met in Beijing to discuss how to improve the efficiency of military command under new circumstances. Fang attended the meeting.

http://www.outlookindia.com/news/article/Jinping-Asks-PLA-to-Be-Combat-Ready-to-Win-Regional-War/861014