Canadian Surface Combatant

Gestart door Zeewier, 06/02/2017 | 17:32 uur

Harald

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/04/mbda-confirms-sea-ceptor-order-for-canadian-surface-combatant/

extra info

The final Sea Ceptor configuration aboard the CSC still needs finalized and confirmed but it will likely be 24x missiles launched from Lockheed Martin's Extensible Launching System (ExLS) located amidship. The RCN would become the launch customer for that new launcher alongside the Brazilian Navy (for its new corvette design based on the TKMS MEKO A-100) depending on who signs the contract first.

These are likely the ExlS cells for MBDA's Sea Ceptor. The configuration would be 6 cells each carrying four missiles.

Harald

Canadian Surface Combatant will be equipped with MBDA's Sea Ceptor

According to a press release published by MBDA on April 19, 2021, the company has been awarded a contract by Lockheed Martin Canada to equip the Royal Canadian Navy's new Canadian surface combatant (CSC) with the Sea Ceptor air defence weapon system.

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https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/naval-news/naval-news-archive/2021/april/10015-canadian-surface-combatant-will-be-equipped-with-mbda-s-sea-ceptor.html

Harald

Canada's new frigate is getting heavier, more expensive

Canada's next-generation frigate is putting on weight and will cost more money than originally projected, according to a new cost analysis.

The Canadian Surface Combatant program, which being spearheaded by Lockheed Martin based on BAE's Type 26 design, was first selected in 2018 and was put under contract in 2019.

Since the announcement, however, the ship has gone from an estimated $69.8 billion Canadian dollars ($55.75 billion USD) to $77.3 billion Canadian dollars ($61.74 billion USD), according to a new cost estimate by the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer. That cost is more than double the original estimate for the program in 2008, which was in the $28 billion-plus range in then-year Canadian dollars, according to the report.

The ship has also packed on 900 tons, now projected to displace 7,800 tons light ship weight, up from an originally projected 6,900 tons. Fully loaded, the ship is expected to weigh in at 9,400 tons; almost double the 4,700 ton of the current Halifax-class, the former head of Irving Shipbuilding told the CBC earlier this month.

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https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/26/canadas-new-frigate-is-getting-heavier-more-expensive/

Harald

Change of design for next-gen CSC is 'not an option', says Canadian Department for National Defence  ( 80 miljard Can dollar = 52 miljard euro => ca. € 3,47 miljard per schip )

A report into the flagship Canadian naval programme has estimated that costs for the build of 15 UK-designed frigates could breach C$80 billion.

The Canadian Department for National Defence (DND) is sticking to its guns in the planned build of 15 new frigates for the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN), just hours after a report issued by the Parliamentary Budget Officer (PBO) estimated the cost of the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) programme had risen ...

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/naval-warfare/premium-change-design-next-gen-csc-not-option-says/

walter leever

Citaat van: Parera op 17/12/2020 | 14:19 uur
Nee het gaat hier om de APAR en APAR block 2, die is door Thales NL samen met de Canadezen ontwikkeld. Destijds ook aangeboden (block2) voor het ontwerp op basis van de LCF's, maar nu helaas voor Nederland een waarschijnlijk verkeken kans op export naar Canada van deze radar.

Vergeet niet dat Nederland destijds ook mee heeft betaald aan de ontwikkeling van de Italiaanse Vulcano munitie, wij hebben hier ook jaren lang niks mee gedaan. Nu gaan we toch die overstap maken bij de vernieuwing van de 127 mm kanons van het LCF/vLCF maar alsnog zijn we al heel lang betrokken bij dat project. We hadden wel interesse in de aankoop van de nieuwe kanons i.c.m. de nieuwe munitie maar slechts recent is er gekozen om ook over te gaan tot aankoop.

Dacht al dat 't om APAR ging. :P

Meebetalen van NL bij de ontwikkeling van Vulcano,ok,maar dat we ze niet kochten was volgens mij puur budgettair,vandaar dat ze nu dus wel komen,er is wat meer geld.(ook natuurlijk omdat de andere versleten zijn) ;)

Parera

#139
Citaat van: walter leever op 17/12/2020 | 11:42 uur
Ik heb begrepen dat Thales Canada heeft geholpen bij de ontwikkeling van APAR,dus dat bedoelen ze(was een samenwerking),maar goed kan zijn dat ik 't verkeerd begrepen heb. :P

Nee het gaat hier om de APAR en APAR block 2, die is door Thales NL samen met de Canadezen ontwikkeld. Destijds ook aangeboden (block2) voor het ontwerp op basis van de LCF's, maar nu helaas voor Nederland een waarschijnlijk verkeken kans op export naar Canada van deze radar.

Citaat van: walter leever op 17/12/2020 | 12:02 uur
Ik snap sowiezo niet dat als je meegeholpen hebt aan de ontwikkeling(en daar dus belastinggeld voor gebruikt hebt)je geen gebruik maakt van het ontwikkelde produkt,tevens blijf je dan bij met eventuele upgrades en blijf je dus "voorin"meespelen. :dead:

Vergeet niet dat Nederland destijds ook mee heeft betaald aan de ontwikkeling van de Italiaanse Vulcano munitie, wij hebben hier ook jaren lang niks mee gedaan. Nu gaan we toch die overstap maken bij de vernieuwing van de 127 mm kanons van het LCF/vLCF maar alsnog zijn we al heel lang betrokken bij dat project. We hadden wel interesse in de aankoop van de nieuwe kanons i.c.m. de nieuwe munitie maar slechts recent is er gekozen om ook over te gaan tot aankoop.

Mourning

Dus kunnen we het aantal te bouwen Canadese fregatten alweer naar beneden gaan bijstellen doordat het programma dat al bizar duur was hierdoor nog duurder wordt? Dit gebeurt zooooo vaak in Canada en inderdaad ook in Australie... het is echt voorspelbaar ondertussen.
"The only thing necessary for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"- Edmund Burke
"War is the continuation of politics by all other means", Carl von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege/On War (1830).

Huzaar1

Citaat van: walter leever op 17/12/2020 | 12:02 uur
Ik snap sowiezo niet dat als je meegeholpen hebt aan de ontwikkeling(en daar dus belastinggeld voor gebruikt hebt)je geen gebruik maakt van het ontwikkelde produkt,tevens blijf je dan bij met eventuele upgrades en blijf je dus "voorin"meespelen. :dead:

Voor de rest van het hele CSC projekt voorzie ik weer uitstel en idd kostenoverschrijdingen.

Dit is bizar en alleen maar uit te leggen als in invloed of omkoping. Het heeft nul logica inderdaad.
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion" US secmindef - Jed Babbin"

walter leever

#136
Citaat van: Harald op 17/12/2020 | 11:58 uur
Het is maar vanuit welk oogpunt je kijkt ..  :P  Thales Canada of NL ?? ...
Maar in beide kijkhoeken gaat om dezelfde radar... idd die draaiende zwarte koelkast ...  ;D 
Maar om het standpunt in het artikel extra te benadrukken/onderbouwen kwam nu Thales Canada beter uit ..

Ik ben benieuwd hoe dit project verder gaat, als ik dit zo lees dan denk ik ... ooo jee gedoemd om te mislukken.. vertragingen, budget overschrijdingen...

Ik zie een gelijkenis met Australie.
Buitenlands ontwerp , eigen industrie moet het gaan bouwen , verschillende belangen tussen opdrachtgever, werf en ontwerp aanbieder.
vertragingen, budget overschrijdingen.

Ik snap sowiezo niet dat als je meegeholpen hebt aan de ontwikkeling(en daar dus belastinggeld voor gebruikt hebt)je geen gebruik maakt van het ontwikkelde produkt,tevens blijf je dan bij met eventuele upgrades en blijf je dus "voorin"meespelen. :dead:

Voor de rest van het hele CSC projekt voorzie ik weer uitstel en idd kostenoverschrijdingen.

Harald

Citaat van: Huzaar1 op 17/12/2020 | 11:39 uur
"By selecting the design, Canada has selected the associated equipment," said DND spokeswoman Jessica Lamirande. She noted DND is "confident that we have competitively selected the best design to meet Canada's needs."

As a result, a radar built by Lockheed Martin in the U.S., which hasn't yet been certified for naval operations, will be installed on the CSC. Passed over was a state-of-the art naval radar developed with the help of Thales Canada in Nepean. Canadian taxpayers contributed $54 million to the development of that radar, which is now being used on German, Danish and Dutch warships.

Ehm, had hier niet moeten staan,: de door NL ontwikkelde radar...? Want ze doelen op die zwarte draaiende koelkast op de achterkant van boten toch?
Citaat van: walter leever op 17/12/2020 | 11:42 uur
Ik heb begrepen dat Thales Canada heeft geholpen bij de ontwikkeling van APAR,dus dat bedoelen ze(was een samenwerking),maar goed kan zijn dat ik 't verkeerd begrepen heb. :P

Het is maar vanuit welk oogpunt je kijkt ..  :P  Thales Canada of NL ?? ...
Maar in beide kijkhoeken gaat om dezelfde radar... idd die draaiende zwarte koelkast ...  ;D 
Maar om het standpunt in het artikel extra te benadrukken/onderbouwen kwam nu Thales Canada beter uit ..

Ik ben benieuwd hoe dit project verder gaat, als ik dit zo lees dan denk ik ... ooo jee gedoemd om te mislukken.. vertragingen, budget overschrijdingen...

Ik zie een gelijkenis met Australie.
Buitenlands ontwerp , eigen industrie moet het gaan bouwen , verschillende belangen tussen opdrachtgever, werf en ontwerp aanbieder.
vertragingen, budget overschrijdingen.

walter leever

Citaat van: Huzaar1 op 17/12/2020 | 11:39 uur
"By selecting the design, Canada has selected the associated equipment," said DND spokeswoman Jessica Lamirande. She noted DND is "confident that we have competitively selected the best design to meet Canada's needs."

As a result, a radar built by Lockheed Martin in the U.S., which hasn't yet been certified for naval operations, will be installed on the CSC. Passed over was a state-of-the art naval radar developed with the help of Thales Canada in Nepean. Canadian taxpayers contributed $54 million to the development of that radar, which is now being used on German, Danish and Dutch warships.
Ehm, had hier niet moeten staan,: de door NL ontwikkelde radar...? Want ze doelen op die zwarte draaiende koelkast op de achterkant van boten toch?

Ik heb begrepen dat Thales Canada heeft geholpen bij de ontwikkeling van APAR,dus dat bedoelen ze(was een samenwerking),maar goed kan zijn dat ik 't verkeerd begrepen heb. :P

Huzaar1

"By selecting the design, Canada has selected the associated equipment," said DND spokeswoman Jessica Lamirande. She noted DND is "confident that we have competitively selected the best design to meet Canada's needs."

As a result, a radar built by Lockheed Martin in the U.S., which hasn't yet been certified for naval operations, will be installed on the CSC. Passed over was a state-of-the art naval radar developed with the help of Thales Canada in Nepean. Canadian taxpayers contributed $54 million to the development of that radar, which is now being used on German, Danish and Dutch warships.
Ehm, had hier niet moeten staan,: de door NL ontwikkelde radar...? Want ze doelen op die zwarte draaiende koelkast op de achterkant van boten toch?
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion" US secmindef - Jed Babbin"

Harald

Billions in trouble: How the crown jewel of Canada's shipbuilding strategy became a possible financial disaster waiting in the wings

The Canadian Surface Combatant is seen by some in the defence industry as a disaster in the wings that could cost taxpayers dearly.

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But one project, the Canadian Surface Combatant, considered the crown jewel of the federal shipbuilding strategy, is not only behind schedule, but its cost keeps growing and growing. It's seen by some in the defence industry as a disaster in the wings that could cost taxpayers dearly.

The project to acquire 15 surface combatants ships, to replace the current Halifax-class frigates as the backbone of the Royal Canadian Navy, was originally expected to cost $14 billion. That figure soon became $26 billion. Currently, the Liberal government estimates the cost of the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) project could be up to $60 billion.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer puts the figure at $69.8 billion. PBO Yves Giroux is now working on a new cost estimate that some defence insiders worry could put the price tag at $80 billion.

News media reports in 2012 that Conservative cabinet minister Bev Oda had stayed at a hotel in London, England that cost $665 a night and that she spent $16 for a glass of orange juice prompted a ferocious debate in the House of Commons and an eventual apology from Oda.
For the most part, however, MPs have been largely silent on the skyrocketing costs of the CSC, the largest outlay of taxpayer's money in Canadian history for a single procurement project.

Troy Crosby, the assistant deputy minister of materiel at the Department of National Defence, denies the CSC project is in trouble. "I wouldn't call it trouble," he explained in an interview with this newspaper. "Is it hard? Is it challenging work? Absolutely. But I wouldn't say we're in trouble."

But a review by this newspaper, involving the collection of thousands of pages of documents through sources and the access to information law, shows not only that the CSC has been in trouble for years but federal bureaucrats were well aware of those problems and the significant risks posed by the project.

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Voor het gehele artikel, zie onderstaande link

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/billions-in-trouble-how-the-crown-jewel-of-canadas-shipbuilding-strategy-became-a-possible-financial-disaster-waiting-in-the-wings

Harald

Top of the line Canadian-made naval equipment shut out of $70-billion warship program   ( onrust in Canadees fregat programma )

Canadian equipment that taxpayers spent hundreds of millions of dollars to develop isn't being used on the country's new $70-billion fleet of warships because the consortium that won the bid selected its own affiliated companies and their foreign systems.

A number of Canadian firms repeatedly tried to warn ministers and deputy ministers at the Department of National Defence, Public Services and Procurement Canada as well as Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada that they would be shut out of the Canadian Surface Combatant project, according to federal government documents obtained by this newspaper.

Those concerns were ignored. Instead, Canada left it up to the winning consortium, in this case, the U.S.-controlled Lockheed Martin Canada and BAE of the United Kingdom to determine the equipment that would make up key components of the proposed 15-fleet Canadian Surface Combatant, or CSC fleet. By selecting the consortium's Type 26 warship design for the CSC, the Royal Canadian Navy automatically agreed to what Lockheed Martin had determined was the best equipment for it to use.

In the last week, this newspaper has chronicled multiple issues with the CSC project, the most expensive military procurement in Canada's history . This newspaper reviewed thousands of pages of documents, obtained through sources and through the access to information law, to reveal how the CSC's budget has spiralled upward and upward and how government officials previously tried to block the cost of the project from becoming public.

In an email, DND defended its choice that shut out inclusion on the CSC of Canadian-made propulsion systems, sonar and communication systems, as well as radar. The Canadian-based firms that build those systems employ hundreds of people in the high-tech sector.

"By selecting the design, Canada has selected the associated equipment," said DND spokeswoman Jessica Lamirande. She noted DND is "confident that we have competitively selected the best design to meet Canada's needs."

As a result, a radar built by Lockheed Martin in the U.S., which hasn't yet been certified for naval operations, will be installed on the CSC. Passed over was a state-of-the art naval radar developed with the help of Thales Canada in Nepean. Canadian taxpayers contributed $54 million to the development of that radar, which is now being used on German, Danish and Dutch warships.

Also shut out of the CSC competition is SHINCOM, a naval communications system built by DRS Technologies of Ottawa and considered one of the top such systems in the world. SHINCOM is in service on other Royal Canadian Navy vessels as well as 150 warships of allied navies around the world, including Australia, the U.S., Japan, New Zealand and South Korea. It was originally developed for Canada's Halifax-class frigates and taxpayers have poured millions of dollars into its development.

Also left on the sidelines was General Dynamic Mission Systems of Ottawa, Canada's top developer of anti-submarine warfare and sonar equipment. The firm has its systems on aircraft or warships of militaries in Canada, Japan, South Korea, Portugal and various South American nations.

Top government officials and politicians were repeatedly warned key Canadian firms would be shut out of the CSC project.

Steve Zuber, vice president of DRS Technologies, wrote on Aug. 31, 2016 to alert innovation minister Navdeep Bains that the way the CSC procurement was designed would work against Canadian firms. "The CSC procurement approach may actually disadvantage Canadian companies," Zuber warned. "The current evaluation approach puts our world-class Canadian solutions at serious risk of not being selected for Canada."

At the heart of the matter was a procurement system that penalized bidders if they deviated too much from their original ship designs to accommodate Canadian equipment. In addition, no competitions were held for key components of the new warships, such as sonar, radar or communications systems.

General Dynamics Missions Systems Canada also tried to warn government officials in November 2019 that the lack of competition shut out high-tech Canadian systems developed over the years with both private and tax dollars.

Company vice president David Ibbetson told navy commander Vice Adm. Art McDonald, DND deputy minister Jody Thomas, PSPC deputy minister Bill Matthews and ISED deputy minister Simon Kennedy about the lack of competition on the CSC anti-submarine warfare systems. That resulted in a "largely foreign solution with only limited Canadian content," he noted.

The documents also show bureaucrats at ISED countering such concerns by pointing out that the CSC program will include equipment from other firms such as L-3 and CAE in Quebec and MDA in B.C. Lockheed Martin has also committed to invest in priority areas such as cybersecurity, clean technology and the marine sector, innovation minister Bains was told.

But the federal government has declined to release other documents requested through access to information law about specifics of the industrial benefits and job creation plan linked to the CSC. There is concern by some in the country's defence industry that the Liberal government has put at risk existing Canadian high-tech jobs, developed and established in part by federal contracts and development money, in exchange for the promise by foreign companies to create new jobs in the future linked to the CSC.

In addition, in November 2019, the Lockheed Martin Canada executive responsible for delivering on the industrial commitments admitted the system had major problems. Walt Nolan said the policy the Canadian government developed has prompted defence firms to significantly overcommit on the jobs and industry benefits they claim they can deliver on the CSC.

But Lockheed Martin has significant support from the leadership of the Royal Canadian Navy, including Vice Adm. McDonald. In July, McDonald took to Twitter to promote the company and its SPY-7 radar, noting that such a system is critical to a warship's survival and how it performs on missions. "For these reasons, the Royal Canadian Navy is delighted that Canada's Combat Ship Team under Lockheed Martin Canada leadership will fit the SPY-7 in CSC," wrote McDonald, in retweeting the company's press release about the radar.

But McDonald's enthusiastic corporate plug left out some critical information, namely that the SPY-7 radar had never been installed on an actual warship. Less than a month before McDonald's tweet, Japan's government, which had been hoping to use SPY-7 radar for a land-based missile defence system, suspended the project. Japan cited technical issues and cost for the decision and is now trying to figure out what to do with the systems it has already paid for.

Japan's military has suggested using the SPY-7 on new frigates but some of the country's lawmakers are trying to scuttle that plan. They are worried that Japan will pay significant development costs to get the radar ready for maritime use and since the U.S. Navy will use a completely different system there will be problems operating with a key ally.

While the SPY-7 radar issue has been debated in Japan's legislature, Canadian politicians have been silent.

Lockheed's rival, Raytheon, the firm which will provide the SPY-6 radar for the U.S. Navy, has made several presentations to the Liberal government. It tried to convince politicians and bureaucrats the Lockheed Martin system could become a money pit that would potentially put Canadian sailors at risk.

Switching to SPY-6 would save Canada tens of millions of dollars as the U.S. Navy would finance future research into modernizing the radar to deal with new threats, federal officials were told.

In addition, Raytheon pointed out that unlike the SPY-7, the testing of its radar, which included intercepts of targets, was completed in 2019.  The U.S. Navy intends to install the system on 50 of its warships.

But cabinet ministers and federal bureaucrats dismissed Raytheon's overtures as an attempt to reverse the CSC procurement process that had already been completed.

Neither Lockheed Martin nor the DND could provide a date on when the SPY-7 will be ready for naval operations and certified for use on the CSC. But they noted the company is supposed to deliver the first radar system in 2025.

"Once fully integrated into the CSC design, the SPY-7 will provide Canada the capabilities it needs to meet the operational and interoperability requirements of the Royal Canadian Navy well past the middle of this century," added DND spokeswoman Lamirande.

Responses from DND and Lockheed Martin to questions posed by this newspaper for this story were answered in nearly identical fashion.

Canadian taxpayers will finance the development and testing of any of the radar requirements for the CSC. The cost of that, however, is not known at this point.

https://www.saltwire.com/news/canada/top-of-the-line-canadian-made-naval-equipment-shut-out-of-70-billion-warship-program-531648/#.X9sSnkKV2hQ.twitter

Harald

Ottawa Picks Untested Radar for Future CSC Frigates    
(wel raar gang van zaken bij de Canadezen, het moest een bestaand ontwerp qua schip zijn en ze kiezen een papieren ontwerp en nu een compleet nieuwe radar. )

Cutting-edge radar system for new frigates never used on warships, must be adapted

New radar system can also be upgraded to work with ballistic missile defence


The Canadian navy's new frigates will get a cutting-edge radar system that has never before been installed on a warship — a recent decision that quietly ended a heated debate within the $60 billion warship program.

The Lockheed Martin-built AN/SPY-7 radar will be installed on the new warships despite a furious back-room lobbying campaign by elements in the defence industry to convince DND to take a pass on the new system.


It was a critical decision — one on which the federal government has been silent, apart from a few scattered social media posts, despite repeatedly promising to be more open and transparent about the multi-billion-dollar decisions it makes on shipbuilding.

The choice of a radar system for the frigates has important implications for the military, as well as for the taxpayers who will foot the bill for Ottawa's $60 billion plan to build 15 new surface combat ships for the navy.

The BMD option
It also has significant political ramifications because Lockheed Martin's AN/SPY-7 radar is easy to upgrade to a ballistic missile defence system — a defence program successive Canadian governments have resisted joining.

The contract to install the radar system on the new frigates was awarded in September by the warship's prime contractor, Irving Shipbuilding Inc., and acknowledged publicly by Lockheed Martin Canada earlier this month.

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigate-radar-lockheed-martin-1.5822606?cmp=rss