€530m bill for Spain's 'sinking submarines'

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

EB gets contract to help lighten Spanish sub

By Jennifer McDermott 

Published 06/03/2013 Groton — The first of the Spanish Navy's four new submarines is too heavy and Electric Boat has been asked to help.

The U.S. Navy hired Electric Boat as the contractor for a foreign military sales agreement with the Spanish Ministry of Defence, in support of the Spanish Navy, according to a statement the U.S. Naval Sea Systems Command issued Monday.

The agreement is worth up to $14 million, an official at the Embassy of Spain who is familiar with the contract said. EB will provide technical assistance and review the S-80 Submarine project for almost three years, the official added.

The S-80 Submarine is Spain's first submarine design. According to Spanish press reports, the S-81 Isaac Peral, the first member of the class, is at least 75 tons overweight. The diesel-electric submarine weighs 2,400 tons submerged and the excess weight could prevent it from surfacing after it dives.

Navantia, a Spanish state-owned company, is building the S-80 submarine fleet. Each submarine will have a crew of 32 and eight special forces.

The Isaac Peral was scheduled to be delivered in 2015 at a cost of about $700 million, but it is estimated that correcting the weight and balance issues could take up to two years.

When asked whether EB would help with the weight problem specifically, the Embassy official said, "We hope." He did not know how many EB employees would be involved.

EB referred questions to the U.S. Navy.

In 2003, the British Ministry of Defence solicited EB's help for its Astute submarine program through a foreign military sales agreement with the United States.

With a substantial gap between the design and construction of the Vanguard class and the start of the Astute program, submarine design and construction skills had atrophied in the United Kingdom, according to the RAND Corp., and about 100 experienced EB designers and managers worked with BAE Systems on the design effort.

http://www.theday.com/article/20130603/NWS09/130609939/1047

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

Spain's S-81 Isaac Peral Submarine Cost $680 Million To Build... And Can't Float

The Huffington Post  |  By Carlo Davi | Posted: 05/24/2013

As Spain seeks to rein in ballooning deficits, it has discovered some of its bloat surfacing from an unexpected place: under the sea.

According to El Pais, the S-81 Isaac Peral -- the first of four state-of-the-art new submarines commissioned for the Spanish Navy -- is 75 to 100 tons overweight. That may not seem like a lot, considering the submarine's full weight when submerged is 2,430 tons, but according to engineers at Navantia, the Spanish shipbuilding company responsible for its design, that excess bulk is enough to prevent the Isaac Peral from successfully resurfacing once submerged.

Unfortunately for the Spainards, Quartz reports that they have already sunk the equivalent of $680 million into the Isaac Peral, and a total of $3 billion into the entire quartet of S-80 class submarines.

The descent has been precipitous for the S-80 subs, which some had hailed as the most modern non-nuclear submarines in the world. Among the S-80's celebrated advancement is a diesel-electric propulsion engine that, ironically, promises to be 20% lighter than comparable systems while delivering 50% more power. The submarines' technical specifications, along with a computer-generated image of what one will look like, can be found here.

If Spain hopes to salvage its submarines, it must either find some weight that can be trimmed from the current design or lengthen the ship to accomodate the excess weight, The Local notes. Though the latter option is more feasible, it is expected to cost Spain an extra $9.7 million per meter.

The submarine setback couldn't have come at a worse time for Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who is embroiled in a corruption scandal and saw his approval rating hit a record low in 2013, Reuters reports. According to RT, Rajoy's austerity cuts trimmed the Spanish military budget by 30 percent in 2012, leaving much less room for added ballast. With Quartz reporting that the S-80 program will be delayed an estimated two years and another general election looming in 2015, Rajoy likely will not see the submarines through to fruition.

Spain's opposition United Left party pounced on the opportunity to criticize the current administration. According to EFE, United Left deputy Gaspar Llamazares quoted a famous monologue by Spanish comedian Miguel Gila in a formal question submitted to the Bureau of the Congress of Deputies, asking if the S-80 submarine was "well-colored but did not float." While the humor may be lost in translation, the jest was taken seriously by the Bureau, which scolded Llamazares for his mocking tone.

How did such an expensive project get funded while, as El Mundo notes, the Spanish military's entire special weapons program received a 98% cut? Sheer pride seems to have been a factor: according to Harvard Magazine, the Isaac Peral is named for the Spanish inventor said to have built the first functional modern submarine, and as El Pais explains, Spain hoped the S-80 class would be a new homegrown breakthrough achieved without foreign help.

Now that Navantia is considering bringing in an American contractor to help with the redesign, that dream seems dead in the water.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/spain-submarine-s-81-isaac-peral-cant-float_n_3328683.html

[dudge]

De kosten stijgen sowieso in beide gevallen...
Dan is men mss beter af met onmiddellijk te gaan voor de tweede oplossing...

Hoe dan ook is dit zeer slecht nieuws voor de S-80.
De werf had gehoopt op exportorders (onder meer door de modelijke inzet van Sub Harpoon) en verliest nu al de slag met het Franse Scorpene ontwerp dat o.a. in Brazilie gekozen is.

De Scorpene en S80 hebben dezelfde genen.
Overigens moesten de Walrus subs meen ik ook verlengd worden.

[ARM-WAP]

De kosten stijgen sowieso in beide gevallen...
Dan is men mss beter af met onmiddellijk te gaan voor de tweede oplossing...

Hoe dan ook is dit zeer slecht nieuws voor de S-80.
De werf had gehoopt op exportorders (onder meer door de modelijke inzet van Sub Harpoon) en verliest nu al de slag met het Franse Scorpene ontwerp dat o.a. in Brazilie gekozen is.

[Harald]

Oeps.... ik zie inspiratie voor het reclamebureau van Centraal Beheer", "even Apeldoorn bellen"

Jaaaa, dit is echt een probleempje ala : Houston, we have a problem.

dus 2 optie's :

1) minder gewicht
2) meer lengte (lucht = drijvend vermogen)

Dat wordt een moeilijke keuze voor de oplossing, volgens mij tast oplossing 1, minder gewicht,  je kwaliteiten/capaciteiten aan van je sub. minder staal, ander type staal, minder sterk, e.d.
en oplossing 2 : je kosten gaan omhoog bij verlenging van je sub. 

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

€530 million had already been spent when calculations made by engineers at Navantia, the construction firm, revealed that the submarine as designed would dive to the bottom of the sea and stay there due to excess weight.

Oeps.... ik zie inspiratie voor het reclamebureau van Centraal Beheer", "even Apeldoorn bellen"

[jurrien visser (JuVi op Twitter)]

€530m bill for Spain's 'sinking submarines'

20 May 2013

A defence contract worth €2.2 billion has hit the rocks after tests showed that the "world's most modern" submarine would plunge straight to the bottom of the sea.

Sunday's El Mundo newspaper reported on the latest developments in the submarine saga that has given Spain's defence department a sinking feeling.

The €2.2 billion contract to design and build four S-80 underwater craft, billed as "the most modern submarine in the word" has been put on red alert after engineers found flaws in the plans and sounded the klaxon.

€530 million had already been spent when calculations made by engineers at Navantia, the construction firm, revealed that the submarine as designed would dive to the bottom of the sea and stay there due to excess weight.

Opposition party United Left has mocked the development in parliament and demanded explanations.

Two possible solutions have been proposed to help the fat-bottomed sub get off the ground: trim its weight or make it longer.

The second is more feasible but also more expensive as every extra metre added to the submarine would increase its cost by more than €7.5 million.

The president of the Navantia board has defended the work of the company's Cartagena shipyard and complained of "meddling" by unqualified people.

He explained that it had been reported as far back as 2005 that the development process was not being properly followed and that there was a lot of necessary improvisation due to the addition of new elements at the request of the Ministry of Defence.

The Spanish navy will take delivery of the four submarines next year, in the hope that they will be capable of floating. 

http://www.thelocal.es/20130520/530-million-bill-for-spains-sinking-submarines#.UZsrQM7CRjo